Ongoing MMA Top Ten Discussion

[Nodachi]

You already have rumble at #11, he hasnt even fought yet.

Thanks for your criticism. I dont accept that argument for ranking, its complicated and difficult to rank beyond the top ten.

As for ranking Rumble why wait? I have a pretty good idea where he stands at and I think 11 represents that better than not ranking him at all. I really dont see the problem ranking a fighter on his ability no matter what weight class he decides to compete in. How many fights does a fighter need in a weight class before you say ok, ill now credit them for being the fighter they already are. Changing a weight class doesnt diminish what a fighter has already done and I choose to factor that in first, its something I can check against and has proven to work so far, so thats still how I do it.

I think its a better system to use. I rank fighters in thier weight class and I dont rank fighters in a weight class they dont compete even if that is the accepted norm either. Thus no Bj Penn at WW.

Semantics aside, if the fights were 15 more pounds, which they likely were as much as Rumble cuts.

However upon looking at it, I found my own argument against the way 11-15 is ranked. I think AJ should be lower, I can see dropping him below Wanderlei on the grounds that Wanderlei now holds top ten vic over Bisping. Which is more legit than a win over top ten Brennemen, at the weight class which is what trumps the argument above. A win over a top ten Brennemen is more legit to me then Lombard who looks better but fights lesser competition and hasnt beaten anyone of note. Leben actually deserves 11 for beating Wanderlei.

[Crunchie]

Thanks for your criticism. I dont accept that argument for ranking, its complicated and difficult to rank beyond the top ten.

As for ranking Rumble why wait? I have a pretty good idea where he stands at and I think 11 represents that better than not ranking him at all. I really dont see the problem ranking a fighter on his ability no matter what weight class he decides to compete in. How many fights does a fighter need in a weight class before you say ok, ill now credit them for being the fighter they already are. Changing a weight class doesnt diminish what a fighter has already done and I choose to factor that in first, its something I can check against and has proven to work so far, so thats still how I do it.

I think its a better system to use. I rank fighters in thier weight class and I dont rank fighters in a weight class they dont compete even if that is the accepted norm either. Thus no Bj Penn at WW.

Semantics aside, if the fights were 15 more pounds, which they likely were as much as Rumble cuts.

However upon looking at it, I found my own argument against the way 11-15 is ranked. I think AJ should be lower, I can see dropping him below Wanderlei on the grounds that Wanderlei now holds top ten vic over Bisping. Which is more legit than a win over top ten Brennemen, at the weight class which is what trumps the argument above. A win over a top ten Brennemen is more legit to me then Lombard who looks better but fights lesser competition and hasnt beaten anyone of note. Leben actually deserves 11 for beating Wanderlei.

Alright, where's Marquart then, he's fighting at WW against Yoshida in Feb.
He's a legit top 10 MW, but you didnt rank him in WW?

Also Kawajiri is now FW

Good work BTW

[aussjj]

Thanks for your criticism. I dont accept that argument for ranking, its complicated and difficult to rank beyond the top ten.

As for ranking Rumble why wait? I have a pretty good idea where he stands at and I think 11 represents that better than not ranking him at all. I really dont see the problem ranking a fighter on his ability no matter what weight class he decides to compete in. How many fights does a fighter need in a weight class before you say ok, ill now credit them for being the fighter they already are. Changing a weight class doesnt diminish what a fighter has already done and I choose to factor that in first, its something I can check against and has proven to work so far, so thats still how I do it.

I think its a better system to use. I rank fighters in thier weight class and I dont rank fighters in a weight class they dont compete even if that is the accepted norm either. Thus no Bj Penn at WW.

Semantics aside, if the fights were 15 more pounds, which they likely were as much as Rumble cuts.

However upon looking at it, I found my own argument against the way 11-15 is ranked. I think AJ should be lower, I can see dropping him below Wanderlei on the grounds that Wanderlei now holds top ten vic over Bisping. Which is more legit than a win over top ten Brennemen, at the weight class which is what trumps the argument above. A win over a top ten Brennemen is more legit to me then Lombard who looks better but fights lesser competition and hasnt beaten anyone of note. Leben actually deserves 11 for beating Wanderlei.

Got to respectfully disagree Nodachi.

Most guys are noticably better at one weight class than the other and there is really no way to know until they have spent a good amount of time in both.

My policy is to not rank at a weight class you haven't fought, however you did bring up something interesting: "How many fights does a fighter need in a weight class before you say ok, ill now credit them for being the fighter they already are."

Good point. When I rank I always give the edge to experience. And experience transcends weight classes.

IE: If Fedor dropped to 205 and beat a fringe top 10 guy like Ryan Bader, I would absolutely put Fedor in the top 10 LHW. However if Anthony Perosch were to do the same, I would not. Despite having a deeper record at light heavyweight than Fedor, there is nothing that tells me that Perosch's win was anything other than a flash in the pan. Despite being in another weight class, Fedor's immense record establishes him to gain rank swiftly. He doesn't need as much "proof" as other fighters.

But he still needs a record at that weight. He probably needs the bare minimum record to achieve said rank. Same for ranking him at heavyweight: You can always say "WHAT HAS HE DONE FOR ME LATELY?!?!?!?" Well until he lost, Fedor didn't really need to do much to hold #1 as long as he gets a good fight here and there and doesn't waver. He's not one of these "new breed" guys that destroy a few people then find out they gas/can't take a hit.

[Nodachi]

Alright, where's Marquart then, he's fighting at WW against Yoshida in Feb.
He's a legit top 10 MW, but you didnt rank him in WW?

Also Kawajiri is now FW

Good work BTW

Thanks, AJ is an overblown WW cutting from as much as 230, I find it easier to rank him at MW against the likes of Leben, Wanderlei etc. .

I am having a hard time placing Marquardt, my thoughts are he will soon be irrelevant in the rankings so ive left him at 16 back when he was booted from the UFC, but its time to tackle that in my next post.

For Marquardt a good argument could be made to rank him over Kampmann but that was awhile ago, the fighters already in the top 15 have legit reasons to be there. Its just a tighter weight class in terms of talent. Him actually beating Yoshida at WW doesnt mean much and doesnt give a reason to rank him any higher. He may actually need to beat fighters in the ufc or strikeforce or build up a Lombard like resume over time. I think Marquardt will return to MW at some point I think the cut will actually hurt him more than help.

Kawajiri I just forgot about because im still unclear if Kawajiri intends to stay at FW for awhile.

@Aussj

Im glad you agree, experience transcends weight classes as we have discussed that before and I believe it transcends stronger than most do. Its true many fighters perform better at a certain weight and thats taken into account. But I have been accurate placing these fighters before and if not I would adopt a wait and see approach but good placement isnt just MMATH for me its also about good prediction, for example I placed Faber when he moved down well because of my experience watching him and betting on fights, in the same way I can check against AJ and place him well which is conservative. MW just has a thin talent pool imo, which is why I can do that confidently. Just as Ive placed Dos Santos at #1 for a long time which we also disagreed. I think we called this speculative vs quantitative ranking or something like it. I dont use my own ranking for the site. I average the the rankings between me you and vanzanco that go on the site to get the best results between these two styles to keep them both fresh/current (speculative) and legit/mmath (quantitative). I actually lean more than i would in the one direction to balance your rankings Aussj because me and Vanzanco are already similiar.

[Nodachi]

@ Paulo

Where the lower ranks are at a glance

14 Alves is 2-3, with his biggest win over Koscheck in 08
13 Daley is 3-2, with his biggest win over Kampmann in 09
12 Hendricks is 4-1, with his biggest win over Brennemen in 10
11 Woodley is 5-0, with his biggest win over Daley in 11
10 Story is 3-2, with his biggest win over Alves and Hendricks 10,11
09 Brennemen is 3-2, with his biggest win over Story 11
08 Condit is 4-1, with his biggest wins over Ellenberger (split) 09, has a loss to Kampmann (split) 09
07 Kampmann 3-2, with his biggest wins over Story 11 and Condit 09

Marquardt is 3-2, with his biggest win over Maia and Kampmann in 09 and 08 at MW, so id place Marquardt just over Daley at 13 without going into more details since he is outside the top ten and will decline from there. All losses are already in line with the rankings so no reason to list them.

Heres the complete list, I track ranks 1-20 for reference for the 1-10 ranks. So the farther from 1-10 the less updated they get but still are useful to have to check against.

1. Georges Pierre 22-2
2. Nick Diaz 26-7
3. Jon Fitch 26-3
4. Jake Ellenberger 26-5
5. Jake Shields 26-6
6. Martin Kampmann 18-5
7. Carlos Condit 27-5
8. Josh Koscheck 18-5
9. Charlie Brenneman 14-3
10. Rick Story 14-5
11. Tyron Woodley 8-0
12. Johny Hendricks 11-1
13. Nathan Marquardt 31-10
14. Paul Daley 29-11
15. Thiago Alves 14-4
16. Ben Askren 9-0
17. Mike Pyle 20-7
18. John Hathaway 15-1
19. Jay Heiron 22-5
20. Rick Hawn 11-1

[aussjj]

It's kind of cool that we all have different perspectives on HOW to rank, as long as they are all reasonable. And I didn't know about the site ranking math that's going on. Good stuff.

[Nodachi]

Heavyweight W/L
1. Junior Dos Santos 14-1
2. Alistair Overeem 36-11
3. Cain Velasquez 9-1
4. Fabricio Werdum 15-5
5. Daniel Cormier 9-0
6. Josh Barnett 31-5
7. Shane Carwin 12-2
8. Antonio Silva 16-3
9. Frank Mir 16-5
10. Fedor Emelianenko 33-4

Lheavy weight W/L
1. Jon Jones 15-1
2. Dan Henderson 29-8
3. Mauricio Rua 20-6
4. Lyoto Machida 17-3
5. Rashad Evans 22-1
6. Phil Davis 9-1
7. Ryan Bader 14-2
8. Forrest Griffin 18-7
9. Quinton Jackson 32-10
10. Antonio Noguiera 20-5

Middleweight W/L
1. Anderson Silva 28-4
2. Chael Sonnen 26-11
3. Luke Rockhold 9-1
4. Ronaldo Souza 15-3
5. Tim Boetsch 15-4
6. Yushin Okami 26-7
7. Mark Munoz 12-2
8. Vitor Belfort 21-9
9. Michael Bisping 22-4
10. Hector Lombard 31-2

Welterweight W/L
1. Georges Pierre 22-2
2. Carlos Condit 28-5
3. Johny Hendricks 12-1
4. Jon Fitch 26-4
5. Jake Ellenberger 27-5
6. Nick Diaz 26-8
7. Jake Shields 27-6
8. Martin Kampmann 19-5
9. Charlie Brenneman 14-3
10. Rick Story 14-5

Lightweight W/L
1. Gilbert Melendez 20-2
2. Ben Henderson 16-2
3. Frank Edgar 14-2
4. Shinya Aoki 30-5
5. Clay Guida 29-12
6. Anthony Pettis 15-2
7. Gray Maynard 9-1
8. Michael Chandler 9-0
9. Eddie Alvarez 22-3
10. Jim Miller 20-3

Featherweight W/L
1. Jose Aldo 20-1
2. Hatsu Hioki 23-4
3. Chad Mendes 10-1
4. Pat Curran 17-4
5. Marlon Sandro 21-3
6. Tatsuya Kawajiri 30-7
7. Robert Peralta 14-3
8. Charles Oliveira 14-2
9. Yuri Alcantara 27-3
10. Darren Elkins 13-2

Bantamweight
1. Dominick Cruz 18-1
2. Urijah Faber 26-5
3. Brian Bowles 10-2
4. Renan Barao 28-1
5. Scott Jorgenson 13-5
6. Brad Pickett 20-6
7. Miguel Torres 39-4
8. Masakatsu Ueda 14-1
9. Damacio Page 12-6
10. Zach Makovsky 14-2

Flyweight W/L
1. Ian McCall 11-3
2. Jussier da Silva 12-1
3. Joseph Benavidez 15-3
4. Demetrious Johnson 10-2
5. Yasuhiro Urushitani 19-5
6. Shinichi Kojima 12-4
7. Mitsuhisa Sunabe 15-7
8. Rambaa Somdet 9-2
9. Mamoru Yamaguchi 26-6
10. Kiyotaka Shimizu 9-5

[Crunchie]

Solid

HW- I might have Big Nog as # 10 - even though Fedor has 2 straight wins and wins over Nog but Minotauros quality of opponents have been greater. I still see your point though.

LHW - good gawd, talk about hard to dictate who goes where. Rampage beat Lyoto, Bader beat rampage, Lyoto beat Rashad...so on and so on. I would probably have Bader at #6.

MW - No to Kennedy?

WW - Condit is a solid #2 and Nick at #5

LW - didnt think it would be that easy, but now that you layed it out looks good, I think Gray goes to #5

FW - still a pretty fresh division, looks good though

BW - Good

FLY - I would have Mighty Mouse at #2 and see what happens after the second fight to see who drops to #4 position



Really well done!!

Rep'd

dammit....you must spread rep etc

[Nodachi]

Solid

HW- I might have Big Nog as # 10 - even though Fedor has 2 straight wins and wins over Nog but Minotauros quality of opponents have been greater. I still see your point though.

Nogs 2 losses to Mir hurt him more than, Fedors losses to Silva, Hendo and Werdum, imo.

LHW - good gawd, talk about hard to dictate who goes where. Rampage beat Lyoto, Bader beat rampage, Lyoto beat Rashad...so on and so on. I would probably have Bader at #6.

I moved Bader up, im discounting him for losing to Tito, but it was likely a fluke.

MW - No to Kennedy?

recent wins while good are not top 20, Lombard is the spot he needs to be considered at. Lombard has fought lesser competition but has shown consistancy. Kennedy seems to struggle with better grapplers than himself.

WW - Condit is a solid #2 and Nick at #5

Its hard to discount Fitch, who until recently only lost to #1. Condit has been moved up. I think Ellenberger is better than Diaz.

LW - didnt think it would be that easy, but now that you layed it out looks good, I think Gray goes to #5

Because Pettis now holds a win over the current champ, I think that edges him over Maynard.

FW - still a pretty fresh division, looks good though

BW - Good

FLY - I would have Mighty Mouse at #2 and see what happens after the second fight to see who drops to #4 position

Agree, and I have already done because in my opinion, Mighty Mouse lost that decision.

Thanks and good comments. Rep.

[WarpedDude]

Here's some more current up to date polls and articles on the subject at The MMA Beatdown.

[Crunchie]

Here's some more current up to date polls and articles on the subject at The MMA Beatdown.

Ok you have 3 posts and all 3 have you directing people to that retarded C-level website.
Go promote elsewhere fuckface!

Negged

[oddtopsy]

how is Bigfoot ranked higher than Barnett? I cant wait until Fedor is knocked off of that list for good, maybe then they will start being less bias

[Crunchie]

how is Bigfoot ranked higher than Barnett? I cant wait until Fedor is knocked off of that list for good, maybe then they will start being less bias

Henderson should be ranked higher in HW for KOing Fedor

[Nodachi]

Heavyweight W/L

1. Junior Dos Santos 15-1
2. Cain Velasquez 10-1
3. Alistair Overeem 36-11
4. Daniel Cormier 10-0
5. Fabricio Werdum 16-5
6. Shane Carwin 12-2
7. Frank Mir 16-6
8. Antonio Silva 16-4
9. Antonio Nogueira 33-7
10. Josh Barnett 31-6

Lheavy weight W/L

1. Jon Jones 15-1
2. Dan Henderson 29-8
3. Mauricio Rua 20-6
4. Lyoto Machida 17-3
5. Rashad Evans 22-1
6. Phil Davis 9-1
7. Quinton Jackson 32-10
8. Forrest Griffin 18-7
9. Ryan Bader 14-2
10. Alexander Gustafsson 14-1

Middleweight W/L

1. Anderson Silva 28-4
2. Chael Sonnen 26-11
3. Luke Rockhold 9-1
4. Ronaldo Souza 15-3
5. Mark Munoz 12-2
6. Vitor Belfort 21-9
7. Tim Boetsch 15-4
8. Yushin Okami 26-7
9. Michael Bisping 22-4
10. Hector Lombard 31-2

Welterweight W/L

1. Georges Pierre 22-2
2. Martin Kampmann 20-5
3. Carlos Condit 28-5
4. Jake Ellenberger 27-6
5. Jake Shields 27-6
6. Nick Diaz 26-8
7. Johny Hendricks 13-1
8. Erick Silva 14-2
9. Josh Koscheck 19-5
10. Charlie Brenneman 15-3

Lightweight W/L

1. Gilbert Melendez 21-2
2. Ben Henderson 16-2
3. Frank Edgar 14-2
4. Gray Maynard 10-1
5. Michael Chandler 10-0
6. Eddie Alvarez 23-3
7. Shinya Aoki 30-6
8. Clay Guida 29-13
9. Anthony Pettis 15-2
10. Josh Thomson 20-4


Featherweight W/L

1. Jose Aldo 20-1
2. Chad Mendes 10-1
3. Pat Curran 17-4
4. Charles Oliveira 16-2
5. Darren Elkins 14-2
6. Hacran Dias 21-1
7. Yuri Alcantara 27-3
8. Ricardo Lamas 12-2
9. Hatsu Hioki 23-5
10. Diego Nunes 17-2

Bantamweight W/L

1. Dominick Cruz 18-1
2. Urijah Faber 26-5
3. Brian Bowles 10-2
4. Renan Barao 28-1
5. Scott Jorgenson 13-5
6. Brad Pickett 21-6
7. Eduardo Dantas 14-2
8. Zach Makovsky 14-2
9. Michael McDonald 15-1
10. Masakatsu Ueda 14-2


Womans Featherweight

1. Christina Santos 10-1
2. Hiroko Yamanaka 12-1
3. Romy Ruyssen 5-1
4. Yana Kunitskaya 7-1
5. Lauren Taylor 4-0

Womans Bantamweight

1. Ronda Rousey 6-0
2. Sarah Kaufman 15-1
3. Meisha Tate 12-3
4. Marloes Coenen 19-5
5. Rin Nakai 10-0

Womans Super Flyweight

1. Tara LaRosa 20-2
2. Cat Zingano 6-0
3. Rosy Sexton 12-2
4. Barb Honchak 6-1
5. Aisling Daly 12-2

Womans Flyweight

1. Jessica Aquilar 14-4
2. Megumi Fujii 25-2
3. Zoila Gugel 11-1
4. Akaya Hamasaki 7-0
5. Seo Hee Ham 9-5

[Crunchie]

nodachi, these cant be current are they? Or do you mean June 1st?

[Nodachi]

nodachi, these cant be current are they? Or do you mean June 1st?

These should be current, if I missed a fight let me know, they should be current to the end of june.

Odd
Barnett only has Kharitonov and Rogers, both are not top 20, Bigfoot at least has Fedor who I consider top 20 when they fought. Ive moved Barnett to 10 recently in front of a trio of talented heavyweights who have yet to get the big fight that will eventually knock Barnett, Bigfoot and Nog off the list.

[Crunchie]

These should be current, if I missed a fight let me know, they should be current to the end of
june.

Alverez recently beat Aoki
McDonald beat Torres

I will look closer tomorrow morning, thanks bro

[Crunchie]

other than that, I think thats it

[Jet blazear]

Heavy weight
1. JDS
2. Alistair
3. Cain V
4. Werdum
5. Cormier
6. Shane Carwin
7. Joshie
8. Frank Murr
9. Big Nog
10. Mark hunt

[Jet blazear]

I would liked to have ranked Josh above Mir, but Frank just fought for the title. So I felt he deserved to be ranked higher.