Ongoing MMA Top Ten Discussion

[Dert McGert]

I really want to know why people still rank Barnett? Make a strong arguement to me why he should be ranked period. Three failed piss tests, his last quality win was against Big Nog back in 06, which Nog avenged, and he hasn't fought for over a year.

[ninjashoes]

Heavyweight

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Brock Lesnar
3. Frank Mir
4. Cain Velasquez
5. Junior Dos Santos
6. Josh Barnett
7. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
8. Fabricio Werdum
9. Brett Rogers
10.Andrei Arlovski

Light Heavyweight

1. Lyoto Machida
2. Mauricio Rua
3. Quinton Jackson
4. Rashad Evans
5. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira
6. Anderson Silva
7. Forrest Griffin
8. Gegard Mousasi
9. Dan Henderson
10.Thiago Silva

Middleweight

1. Anderson Silva
2. Vitor Belfort
3. Chael Sonnen
4. Nate Marquardt
5. Dan Henderson
6. Demian Maia
7. Jorge Santiago
8. Jake Shields
9. Robbie Lawler
10.Yoshihiro Akiyama

Welterweight

1. Georges St. Pierre
2. Jon Fitch
3. Thiago Alves
4. Josh Koscheck
5. Jake Shields
6. Paul Daley
7. Martin Kampmann
8. Carlos Condit
9. Paulo Thiago
10.Dan Hardy

Lightweight

1. Shinya Aoki
2. BJ Penn
3. Eddie Alvarez
4. Tatsuya Kawajiri
5. Kenny Florian
6. Gray Maynard
7. Frankie Edgar
8. Gilbert Melendez
9. Sean Sherk
10.Tyson Griffon

Featherweight

1. Jose Aldo
2. Mike Thomas Brown
3. Urijah Faber
4. Michihiro Omigawa
5. Hatsu Hioki
6. Marlon Sandro
7. Raphael Assuncao
8. Bibiano Fernandes
9. Takeshi Inoue
10.Masanori Kanehara

All based on quality of opponents and performances, of course.

I think Anderson Silva will stay at MW for awhile. He's gotta fight Maia, Belfort, Sonnen and probably have a rematch with Marquardt.

[Nodachi]

I really want to know why people still rank Barnett? Make a strong arguement to me why he should be ranked period. Three failed piss tests, his last quality win was against Big Nog back in 06, which Nog avenged, and he hasn't fought for over a year.

Barnett isnt ranked for us, I heard he would be fighting in Strikeforce but they dont want him, so now he is speaking with Dream, I dont see him getting any important fight anytime soon, so he is only mentioned in notable's. Depite he hasnt done anything in ages, he hasnt loss either. If I ranked him on ability id place him right beneath Nog.

[aussjj]

I think Anderson Silva will stay at MW for awhile. He's gotta fight Maia, Belfort, Sonnen and probably have a rematch with Marquardt.

Yeah but I don't see why you can't be ranked in 2 divisions. It seems a bit ridiculous to rank Forrest above him.

[Nodachi]

Yeah but I don't see why you can't be ranked in 2 divisions. It seems a bit ridiculous to rank Forrest above him.

I dont think Anderson will compete enough at MW, he could be ranked there based on just his two fights, wherever he wants to go he would be ranked among the best. However I believe he will focus on MW for now with 2 title defenses lined up, which should give them enough time to find a 3rd contender before he fights again at LHW. He will be busy at MW this year.

[aussjj]

I dont think Anderson will compete enough at MW, he could be ranked there based on just his two fights, wherever he wants to go he would be ranked among the best. However I believe he will focus on MW for now with 2 title defenses lined up, which should give them enough time to find a 3rd contender before he fights again at LHW. He will be busy at MW this year.

Yeah I certainly don't think he has to be ranked there. I just don't think putting him there is a problem either. If I took him off I'd probably bump everyone. Same for if I took off Dan. Then I'd probably do what you did for 9-10.

[RICK LIM]

I really want to know why people still rank Barnett? Make a strong arguement to me why he should be ranked period. Three failed piss tests, his last quality win was against Big Nog back in 06, which Nog avenged, and he hasn't fought for over a year.

I have to agree after that whole situation with Barnett and Fedor fight kinda put Barnett into limbo after that. Barnett needs to fight to stay on that list bottom line.

[aussjj]

Would it be wrong to put JDS as the #2 heavyweight? He's certainly done a lot more than Brock, and also more than Mir who has to be ranked below Brock.

[Narbegesicht]

werdum, gonzaga, struve, mirko, and yvel warrants jds being above everyone except brock since brock is the champ after all

[aussjj]

werdum, gonzaga, struve, mirko, and yvel warrants jds being above everyone except brock since brock is the champ after all

I'm feeling that way as well. Except I think I'd actually put him above Brock. Brock's record is worse then so many heavies EXCEPT that he has to be ranked above Mir. So to me it's really just an issue of whether or not JDS deserves to be above Mir and I'd say he does. Therefore he deserves to be above Brock as well because Brock's shallow record only puts him a baby step above Mir.

[Nodachi]

I'm feeling that way as well. Except I think I'd actually put him above Brock. Brock's record is worse then so many heavies EXCEPT that he has to be ranked above Mir. So to me it's really just an issue of whether or not JDS deserves to be above Mir and I'd say he does. Therefore he deserves to be above Brock as well because Brock's shallow record only puts him a baby step above Mir.

Really JDS... should be the #2 HW in the world without having beaten anyone in the top ten? Mir, Brock and Cain all have something JDS doesnt a top ten win. Id could be generous and count Werdum but still Mir has wins over two current champs. Nog would need to lose more and against someone like Struve or Yvel to justify this.

[aussjj]

Really JDS... should be the #2 HW in the world without having beaten anyone in the top ten? Mir, Brock and Cain all have something JDS doesnt a top ten win. Id could be generous and count Werdum but still Mir has wins over two current champs. Nog would need to lose more and against someone like Struve or Yvel to justify this.

Werdum is definitely top 10.

For me, it's really asking if he should be ranked higher than Mir, because like I said Brock is only a baby step above Mir because of his incredibly shallow record. Without Mir, it's just Couture and Herring.

Let's line up there wins:

JDS: Mir:

Werdum Nogueira
Gonzaga Kongo
Crocop Lesnar (in his second fight)
Yvel Hardonk
Struve

Neither fought the best Werdum or Nogueira. Werdum was out of shape and underprepared, while Nogueira was a complete zombie and pretty washed up. But I suppose the win over Nogueira was a bit better. However, GG > Kongo, Crocop > Lesnar at that point in time, Yvel and Struve are each as good if not better than Hardonk.

Mir's record consists of pretty much just beating Nog, who is far past his prime, and beating Lesnar, who was no where near his prime yet.

[Nodachi]

Werdum is definitely top 10..

I agree about Werdum but some others feel Overeem is thier man.

For me, it's really asking if he should be ranked higher than Mir, because like I said Brock is only a baby step above Mir because of his incredibly shallow record. Without Mir, it's just Couture and Herring....

I feel #2 Brock is so untested that his hold is shallow. Its actually quite impressive that a man with only 5 fights is ranked #2 and shows how much a title fight for him wasnt really justified. However i dont think you can justify Mir over Lesner seeing as Brock just beat him. so he must be compared agaisnt both to be ranked #2 imo.

Neither fought the best Werdum or Nogueira. Werdum was out of shape and underprepared, while Nogueira was a complete zombie and pretty washed up. But I suppose the win over Nogueira was a bit better. However, GG > Kongo, Crocop > Lesnar at that point in time, Yvel and Struve are each as good if not better than Hardonk.

Mir's record consists of pretty much just beating Nog, who is far past his prime, and beating Lesnar, who was no where near his prime yet.

theres a double standard in your comparisions as you are comparing current losses in Nog for Mir credibility and then going back and comparing CC as being a better win than Lesner in the past. Im going to just go with current standings for comparision.

Let's line up there wins:

JDS: Mir:

Werdum<Nogueira
I suppose Werdum #9-10 was better than #4 Nog, <this isnt even a close comparison, Nog was clearly better and even if you rank him after, he is clearly better, what if Nog got a takedown and top control vs anyone in the top ten. You count count this man out yet.

Gonzaga=Kongo
these two are actually very close currently and Gonzaga loss to JDS is very comparable to Nogs loss to Cain Velasquez.

Crocop<Lesnar
Lesner must be ranked at #2 currently, and CC is top 20 at best.

Yvel=Sylvia
Yvel hasnt done much of anything and neither does sylvia these days, but is worth mentioning as a previous champ, Yvel isnt top 20 and neither is Sylvia, I think these are a fairer comparison to value of a win. They are both irrelevant right now in the top 10 picture.

Struve>Hardonk
This is a fairer comparison to me, Struve is definitly the better fighter

probably not the best way to compare though.

I prefer to look at it like this, as i feel its a more accurate comparision.

Current wins

#2 Brock has wins over #3 and 1 top twenty
#3 Mir has wins over #2, #6, and 1 top twenty
#4 JDS has wins over #10, and 3 top twenty
#5 Cain has wins over #6, and 1 top twenty and has been given a much easier road imo.

I appreciate the feedback +1 rep, im a big JDS nuthugger, him and Cain are very close in terms of quality of wins as well. Nog is scewing things a bit, as this happens when a fighter underperforms, should Nog lose to a non top ten it would change the rankings again as Mir got a boost from him as did Cain. I still think nog is very dangerous if a fight hits the ground.

[aussjj]

I feel #2 Brock is so untested that his hold is shallow. Its actually quite impressive that a man with only 5 fights is ranked #2 and shows how much a title fight for him wasnt really justified. However i dont think you can justify Mir over Lesner seeing as Brock just beat him. so he must be compared agaisnt both to be ranked #2 imo.

Right. What I was saying is that Brock only holds his ranking because he HAS to be ranked above Mir. Therefore, if someone is more accomplished than Mir and deserved to be ranked higher, than they would deserve to be ranked higher than Brock as well.
Such as: 1. Fedor 2. JDS 3. Brock 4. Mir

If I can justify that JDS should be more highly ranked than Mir, then I conclude that he should be more highly ranked than Brock as well because Brock has inferior wins to all top 10 heavies with the exception of his win over Mir. Therefore he is a mere baby step above Mir in the rankings. His ranking goes up when Mir's goes up and down when Mir's goes down because Mir is the only thing keeping him established.

theres a double standard in your comparisions as you are comparing current losses in Nog for Mir credibility and then going back and comparing CC as being a better win than Lesner in the past. Im going to just go with current standings for comparision.

Well I see what you are saying here. But I'm trying to put things in perspective instead of just using a blanket rule such as "always gauging them by their rankings when they fought". Which by the way you did farther down by saying Brock > Crocop and Nogueira > Werdum. Which way are you going to have it?

But that's besides the point. As I was saying I was attempting to put things in a more flexible perspective. No matter how you slice it, you HAVE to assume that an out-dated Crocop was a more valuable win than Brock in his second fight. Even if you disagree, and it's a fine opinion to have, it's simply not an objective opinion. And rankings are about objectives, not subjectives. However, you don't have to assume that zombie-Nog was more valuable than Werdum. If I be as objective as possible, I can conclude that Werdum would be as valuable to beat as Nogueira that night. They were both #1 contenders that night, were they not? Nonetheless, neither was tremendously valuable because Werdum also came in out of shape.

Anyway, I don't even know if I fully bought what I just explained directly above. I'm kind of toying around with the idea. But if you disagree with perspective ranking then you also have to put Crocop above Brock.

Let's line up there wins:

JDS: Mir:

Werdum<Nogueira

I'll give you that.

Gonzaga=Kongo

nah. GG>Kongo

Crocop<Lesnar

can't give you both. So Crocop > Lesnar at the time. But if not and you want to perspective, then Crocop=Lesnar at the time and Werdum=Nogueira at the time. Approximately.

Yvel=Sylvia

Actually Sylvia>Yvel. But that was so long ago and so many losses ago that it doesn't hold much bearing in my opinion. Mir was shitty not so long ago, so I whiped his slate clean when he started to improve.

Struve>Hardonk

Yeah I think so.

probably not the best way to compare though.

I prefer to look at it like this, as i feel its a more accurate comparision.

Current wins

#2 Brock has wins over #3 and 1 top twenty
#3 Mir has wins over #2, #6, and 1 top twenty
#4 JDS has wins over #10, and 3 top twenty
#5 Cain has wins over #6, and 1 top twenty and has been given a much easier road imo.

Well this is what I wanted to avoid because thinking this way nails Brock and Mir at 2 and 3 because they split with each other at a time when no other heavies could make a claim for those positions. If JDS or Cain were as accomplished 2 years ago, they would have taken those spots because Brock and Mir wouldn't be able to bump there rankings off each other. I don't want to rank Mir because he beat Brock when he was noob, and solidify his position because Brock began to excell afterwards. Additionally, I don't want to rank Brock just because he beat Mir and no one else. I want to take a perspective look and see who did more than Mir and rank that person higher than both. Mir beating Brock in his second fight doesn't hold too much ground. So I think JDS can finally make that step. Cain can almost make it, but Mir also beat Kongo and Nog so he hasn't quite yet.

1. Fedor
2. JDS
3. Brock
4. Mir
5. Cain
6. Barnett
7. Nogueira
8. Werdum
9. Rogers
10.Arlovski

don't think Overeem has done enough yet, but that's another story.

[LANCE SVRETHRVST]

barnett would destroy merr

[Dert McGert]

barnett would destroy merr

But his piss would melt the cup.

[aussjj]

barnett would destroy merr

and so would Werdum. All they need is to get on top once and pound Merr into oblivion just like Brock, Vera, and Pe De Pano did.

[LANCE SVRETHRVST]

and so would Werdum. All they need is to get on top once and pound Merr into oblivion just like Brock, Vera, and Pe De Pano did.

merr would beat werdum, no doubt. vera's win was mostly of the stand-up variety.

[LANCE SVRETHRVST]

i don't even like merr, werdum is just not that good.

[aussjj]

i don't even like merr, werdum is just not that good.

Nah Werdum is really good. He just takes a long time to get going. He has a great chin and a great thai clinch and would eventually tko Mir on the ground. Mir sucks at getting hit and his guard doesn't work against against good grapplers.