View Full Version : On the idea of there being something of everything in everything


amanamagus
08-15-2008, 06:33 PM
ANALYSIS 62.1, January 2002, pp. 00–00. © Gareth B. Matthews
On the idea of there being something of everything in everything
By GARETH B. MATTHEWS

Notoriously, the Pre-Socratic philosopher Anaxagoras maintained that there is something of everything in everything. ‘All things have a portion of everything’, he wrote (B6).1 He supplied an important qualification when he also said this: ‘In everything there is a portion of everything except mind, but mind is in some things, too’ (B11). So maybe his idea was that in every portion of material stuff there is always something of every other sort of material stuff.

As if that startling claim were not baffling enough, Anaxagoras added, perhaps thinking to reassure us, that ‘each single thing is and was most plainly those things of which it contains most’ (B12). But now, instead of being helped to find his view more intelligible, we seem to have crossed the line from mere enigma to outright incoherence. For consider: My watch chain is ‘most plainly’ gold if, and only if, my watch chain contains more pure gold than anything else it contains. But, if there is no such thing as pure gold, my watch chain will not contain more of that than anything else, there being no such thing as that.

‘You can always imagine that there is such a thing as pure gold,’ someone might say, trying to help Anaxagoras out. But I’m not sure Anaxagoras would have accepted the help. It wasn’t that he thought all things are hopelessly mixed up just as a matter of chance circumstance. His thought seems to have been that things are in each other this way by nature. Thus, even if it were conceivable that one could refine gold to utter purity, that conceivability would tell us nothing about our real world; in particular, it would tell us nothing about my watch chain.

One might think to solve this problem by speaking simply of what is mostly gold, or mostly blood, or whatever. Then one could perhaps admit that the portion of blood in a vial of liquid that makes the whole quantity of liquid mostly blood is itself only mostly blood. Moreover, what makes the contained portion mostly blood is some sub-portion that is also only mostly blood, and so on ad infinitum.

The first difficulty with such a solution is this. What is only mostly (mostly (mostly … blood …)) will not be guaranteed to be mostly blood. Certainly what is 0.6 (0.6 (0.6 … blood …)) will not be mostly blood. There is, however, an even more basic difficulty. It is certainly coherent to speak of the liquid in a given vial as being mostly blood if one can assume that there is some ratio between the total volume of liquid in the vial and the volume of pure blood it contains – even if one does not know exactly what that ratio is. But if there is no such thing as the ratio between total volume and volume of contained pure blood – and this is the picture Anaxagoras gives us – then the idea of the total volume’s being mostly blood seems incoherent.

So is there any way to make sense of Anaxagoras? Can we coherently think that every portion of material stuff contains something of every other material stuff and also say, coherently, what a given quantity of stuff ‘most plainly is’ by reference to what it contains most of? I think there is. I propose an operational way of understanding these two claims of Anaxagoras:

(1) There is a portion of everything in everything.
(2) Each thing is most plainly that of which it contains the largest portion.

Now here is the problem we want to solve:

Ratio Problem: Suppose a given portion of stuff is ‘most plainly blood’ because it contains four times as much blood as bone, bone being the second most prominent ingredient [application of 2)]. Still, the portion of blood it contains will also contain everything, and so will the portion of bone it contains [application of (1)]. How then can there be a specifiable ratio between the whole and its ingredients, when the ingredients also contain everything?

For our operational solution we will need these technical terms:
x is dominantly g =df x can be perceived to have the configuration of qualities essential to something’s being g.
x is recessively g =df some product of the recursive separation of x into its constituent products, or some dross from its refinement, would be dominantly g.

And we will need these principles:

Principle of Separation: For each portion of stuff that is dominantly g, there is a Separation Process by which this portion can be separated into constituent portions that are, say, dominantly h and dominantly j respectively (example: milk can be churned into butter and buttermilk). The original stuff that was dominantly g will thereby be shown to have been recessively h and j.

Principle of Refinement: For each portion of stuff that is dominantly g, there is a Refinement Process by which this portion of stuff can be refined by removing from it a parcel of stuff that is non-g (example: gold can be refined, leaving dross).

Principle of Recursive Separation: Each product of a Separation Process can be further separated into further constituents, ad infinitum.

Principle of Recursive Refinement: Each refined product can be further refined by an additional Refinement Process (although each additional Refinement Process may have to be either more intense or last longer, or both, to produce additional dross, and the additional dross produced may be progressively smaller and smaller in amount, approaching, but never actually reaching, zero.

Solution to the Ratio Problem: The largest amount of stuff in a given portion of stuff is not the largest amount of pure stuff in it, by comparison with the amounts of other pure stuffs it contains. There is no ‘pure stuff’, since everything contains a portion of everything.

Anaxagoras must suppose that successive refinements of a bar of gold will never yield more dross than gold. The ratio of gold to non-gold in the original bar will then be the ratio of
(a) the amount of refined gold (no doubt measured by weight) toward which successive refinements converge as a limit,2 compared with
(b) the amount of dross toward which successive refinements converge as a limit.

Of course, the constituents of any given portion of stuff are revealed not only by refinement but also by separation. Thus a litre of whole milk may be ‘refined’ by just letting it sit in an appropriately shaped bottle, so that the cream comes to the top. The original litre is dominantly milk by having the qualities of milk because it is, let’s say, ten parts milk to only roughly three parts cream. But the milk may also be separated by churning it into butter and buttermilk, neither of which is dominant in the original litre of milk.

There might seem to be a problem here for Anaxagoras. Suppose that churning the litre of milk yields more butter, by weight, than buttermilk. Shouldn’t the original litre of milk then be, contrary to appearances, dominantly butter, since it is more of that than non-butter?

Anaxagoras should answer that the original litre of milk is more milk than butter because even successive refinements of the milk still leave us with more milk than separation can yield butter. Thus the original litre is ‘most plainly’ milk because successive refinements always leave us with more milk than anything else it contains.

1 Fragments are identified according to the system used in Diels and Krantz 1972. The translations are taken from McKirihan 1994: 196–99.
2 The idea of a convergent series approaching, but never actually reaching, a limit is, I take it, in general harmony with the thought of Anaxagoras. He wrote, ‘For of the small there is no smallest, but always a smaller’ (B3).

University of Massachusetts
Amherst, MA 01003-0525, USA
matthews@philos.umass.edu

References
Diels H. and W. Krantz. 1972. Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker. Zürich/Dublin: Weidmann.
McKirihan, R. D., Jr. 1994. Philosophy before Socrates. Indianapolis: Hackett.

amanamagus
08-15-2008, 06:33 PM
Would other ingredients, “the other less dominant elements” cease to exist by the virtue of being in minority or would “the other elements” become sub elements (parts) of the dominant element itself? Element referring to the smallest level of abstraction our entity is subjected to.

For Anaxagoras to be true, maybe he referred to the one basest element which defines our whole existence, beyond dissection or classification and everything that exists in this world being its mere specification. Now, that element can never be obtained in its abstract form (the mould of the object) by laboratorial (rational) methods since we might never be able to reach zero as much as we try to reach it by these methods.

I do think that there has to be “one basest element and one basic theory” which explains everything in this universe possibly because I feel that everything collates both in inception and culmination – it’s (the pure stuff) the same notion at its deepest. Then everything would be contained in everything.

I really liked the last line, ‘for of the small there is no smallest, but always a smaller’. Maybe we can’t reach the absolute smallest – the singularity by laboratorial methods. Yet it exists. Thoughts? Is it idiotic? Any flaws noticed in thought process? :)

amanamagus
08-16-2008, 05:38 PM
:bump: No one? :wah:

lancaster
08-18-2008, 06:36 AM
In Anaxagoras's time they didn't understand the difference between physical change and chemical change, so much of the above falls flat. We know that the smallest indivisible particle is the atom, so his limit to infinity falls flat as well.

But it is an interesting idea considering the limitation of his knowledge.

Reaper Man
08-18-2008, 06:53 PM
The atom is the smallest indivisible particle?

Judoka
08-18-2008, 09:03 PM
The atom is the smallest indivisible particle?

Protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks and phasars. I think thats as small as weve gotten.

Reaper Man
08-18-2008, 11:22 PM
WAR MUONS

lancaster
08-19-2008, 03:58 AM
The atom is the smallest indivisible particle?

Yes, for the purposes of this discussion. Molecules are composed of atoms. But no atom is composed of another atom. So the atom is as small as we need to go to answer the original question.

amanamagus
08-19-2008, 11:54 PM
Yes, for the purposes of this discussion. Molecules are composed of atoms. But no atom is composed of another atom. So the atom is as small as we need to go to answer the original question.
No, what I meant to say was that we are same in our essence. So atom isn't the smallest particle for the purpose of our discussion. I'm not even talking of quarks, or muons (of which I havent heard of yest) are either. The physical picture of our world keeps changing all the time.

I'm asking if our existence indicates a presence of a small particle which is indivisible and isn't composed of further particles(like we did in the case of an atom which is further composed of electrons, protons and neutrons). Maybe this particle, like a LISP data type 'list', can combine to form more 'lists'. What it'd mean is that we are mere specifications of this smallest particle's specializations - if that makes any sense.

xcept68
08-20-2008, 10:02 PM
But God isn't the atom or God isn't in your ink pen, or your computer. That's pantheism, it's been proved false.

GOD
08-26-2008, 01:59 AM
But God isn't the atom or God isn't in your ink pen, or your computer. That's pantheism, it's been proved false.

Source plz.

Ultrashogun
08-26-2008, 02:20 AM
Yes, for the purposes of this discussion. Molecules are composed of atoms. But no atom is composed of another atom. So the atom is as small as we need to go to answer the original question.

Its best to at least distinguish between nuclear particles(protons,neutrons) and electrons because the distributions of these particles amongst each other can change during chemical reactions, its happening in your body as we speak.

Considering an atom as indivisable simplifies the discussion too much.

xcept68
08-29-2008, 07:28 AM
Source plz.

http://radicalacademy.com/adiphilpseudocosmo2.htm

Pantheism is against reason and experience, and on these grounds we assert that it is to be rejected. Pantheism holds that the universe is God either entirely or partly or as the ideal state to which the world is evolving. In its contemporary meaning, it often speaks of God as evolving in the world, a finite God. Pantheism is of various kinds and may be divided into the following classes:

Real Pantheism which includes: Immanent emanationism, as evidenced in the philosophy of Spinoza, which holds that the world is an emanation of the divine reality. God successively produces in himself various modes and affections. The world, however, is something real. Transient emanationism, as in neo-platonism, maintains that the world, which is real, emanates from God as rays from the sun; it is distinct from God and divine. The Hylozoism of the Stoics which asserts that God is the soul of the world is also an example of transient emanationism.
Evolutionary Pantheism, the doctrine that God does not yet exist. His is the ideal state to which the world is tending. This view was expressed by Alexander in the 1916-18 Gifford Lectures.
Ideal Pantheism such as Brahmanism of India -- whatever exists is Brahma, and what is not Brahma is only illusion.
Transcendental Pantheism teaches that the unique reality is the knowing subject. Johann Fichte speaks of the world as the mere phenomenon of the Ego. For Friedrich Schelling, the unique existent is "absolute identity" which is at the same time real and ideal. For Georg Hegel the unique existing subject is "logical idea" or the notion of being, and by the process of dialectic this notion evolves into all determinate beings (Panlogism).
The opponents to our assertion that Pantheism must be rejected include those who profess Christian Science, Theosophy, and the various philosophical systems cited above. To these we may add absolute dynamists and materialists who believe that the cosmos is self-sufficient.

The argument:

The mobile cosmos can never be identified with Immobile Being, Pure Act, God.
But Pantheism identifies the mobile cosmos with Immobile Being, Pure Act, God.
Therefore, Pantheism is to be rejected.
Regarding the first premise. The cosmos of mobile beings considered in itself is not the Immobile Being, the necessary Divine Being -- rather its mobility depends upon the latter. God is called immobile not because of the immobility of inertia but because he is supreme actuality or perfection. The mobile can never be self-sufficient or ultimate in that mobility connotes potency and act. The mobile lacks sufficient reason for its being exactly because it contains potency; it is not purely act, perfection, reality. Hence, the mobile is imperfect, insufficient and cannot be identified with the perfect, the self-sufficient, the Immobile Being, Pure Act. The infinite multiplication of the mobile does not change its nature of insufficiency precisely because it is mobile. (If you are unfamiliar with classical realism's "Theory of Hylemorphism," it is suggested you read about it here; a presentation of Thomistic theodicy is provided here.)

Regarding the second premise. Evident from the exposition of Pantheism, which either totally or partially identifies the cosmos and God, who is the Immobile Being, Pure Act. Pantheism does not adequately define God and the cosmos. It fails to comprehend God as Pure Act because it fails to understand actuality itself. It fails to comprehend the mobile cosmos in terms of the dualism of potency and act because of its monistic tendency to view the cosmos either as purely fieristic, undetermined, potential or as purely static, and determined.

Pantheism takes being as univocal. As. Maeterlinck's "Bluebird of Paradise" says of the cosmos: "It is all the same somehow." But the Pantheist never defines objectively what is meant by "the same somehow." The classical realist objectively notes that being is analogous. God's existence, which is identical with his essence, does not exhaust all the possibilities of existence since there exist natures which possess existence, not in their own right as natures, but by participation in existence from God who is existence itself. It is true that whatever is real is one, but this unity is analogous. God is one in the purest ontological unity. The cosmos is one accidentally as a union of many substances. Man is one in species, but many in individuals. This man is one as a person, but many in the potential parts that compose him physically.

Lord Krishna
08-29-2008, 07:29 AM
Copy, Paste

xcept68
08-29-2008, 07:47 AM
yeah, he asked for a "source" That means to provide something other than rhetoric.

deegs
08-31-2008, 06:16 PM
written down rhetoric is still rhetoric

xcept68
08-31-2008, 06:25 PM
can you do any better? Didn't think you could.

deegs
09-01-2008, 05:06 PM
you mean can i make unfounded claims based on nothing proving nothing for the purpose of continuing an argument? sure, but im not christian.

kingy
09-01-2008, 05:56 PM
god is beyond all true human comprehension, word or thought.
fighting and arguing about what and who god is or what he does or what he condemns or what sexual position he likes best is like eating shit.
it doesn't taste good and there is no purpose in it.
kthnxbi.




























now.
an answer to the question mr. mangus asked.
is ten fireflies, the heart of a lotus eater and blue strawberries.

xcept68
09-01-2008, 11:03 PM
bashing isn't allowed in this forum Deegs

deegs
09-02-2008, 01:21 AM
bashing isn't allowed in this forum Deegs


no one's bashing, but just remember, do unto others...

xcept68
09-02-2008, 05:48 PM
I got your "do unto others" swinging:grin:

Judoka
09-04-2008, 12:31 AM
telling the truth shouldn't be considered bashing.

amanamagus
09-04-2008, 02:20 AM
telling the truth shouldn't be considered bashing.
What is truth?

Reaper Man
09-04-2008, 03:29 AM
What is truth?

You started reading Michael Foucault didn't you?

I recommend:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Frankfurt_ontruth.gif/200px-Frankfurt_ontruth.gif

amanamagus
09-04-2008, 03:43 AM
You started reading Michael Foucault didn't you?

I recommend:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Frankfurt_ontruth.gif/200px-Frankfurt_ontruth.gif
I'm reading History of madness. Thanks for the recommendation.

Reaper Man
09-04-2008, 04:49 AM
I'm reading History of madness. Thanks for the recommendation.

Don't fall victim to his seductions.

xcept68
09-04-2008, 10:32 PM
telling the truth shouldn't be considered bashing.

it isn't. You haven't provided any truth, and you haven't provided any references to the truth as well.

Judoka
09-07-2008, 07:14 PM
deegs said you use stories to back up your arguments, this is true. you always ask for proof but provide none yourself. you may get answers from the bible but alot of people do not. They see it for what it is, a book of stories that are meant to guide and teach. Its also good for rolling joints with its pages when you run out of zig zags.

kronker
09-08-2008, 08:23 AM
Protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks and phasars. I think thats as small as weve gotten.

You can get even more technical than that. They've recently found "Kronkers" as well.




Thanks folks I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waiters.