View Full Version : What is madness?


amanamagus
08-01-2008, 11:51 AM
Humans vs. Animals and Insane: I think this comparison is important since it is related to madness since we assume that animals and insane are at a lower rung of consciousness.

Humans – What exactly do we think about when we think of that word? I think being a human is just an opportunity; an evolved consciousness which is an essentially neutral situation; one that provides its holder tremendous faculties to go about his business; transcend to higher levels of consciousness or satisfy the primal urges of the “human” and turn back into a beast.

Attaining the state of “human” is not the end of the horizon for other supposedly lesser beings; the road goes far beyond that. There indeed are constraints that limit human existence. Humans can achieve anything and everything they want to; they just haven’t gotten there already.

People associate humans with everything good and noble about this world and everything bad with “animal-ness”. The words like savage and animal have negative connotations in most of the languages to an extent that everything bad is considered primitive and savage. This is a bit queer if not out rightly unfair and narcissistic you see.

We see “humans” indulging in most “inhuman” acts like genocides and rapes among other things. But they too are “humans”; well, at least biologically they are. What force makes them revert back to animal-ness mentally? Or is it that they were

Normality is the globally accepted set of paranoia and prejudices. It is a standard perception propagated and generally accepted by a certain group of people. I don’t know much about etymology but the word seems to have originated from the word “norm”. It translates into “prescribing to a norm”. Normality does not have anything to do with “good” or “bad”.

Insane is just differently sane; differently normal. Rules of the society have less hold over them. They do things and act the way that defies logical thinking. Some have a tendency to question something that’s considered obvious.

Man has built a world (A set of rules to sustain his existence – Civilization) around him and has been trapped in it and has been complicating it for so long that it seems like that’s the real human nature. Why can’t the trait of human uniqueness that we witness in physical and mental behavior of people extended to include all the crazy people into the purview of normal. I do agree that there is a certain set of basic rules which define our existence as human race – certain similarities which without question are a part of human consciousness.

Sometimes I wonder whether we all are “differently normal” and have some sort of a perception gateway which makes us interpret the action of others the way we do even when we have different reasons and different actions. The perception gateway of the insane is distorted but it can be fixed by mechanics which go by fancy names as psychologists, psychiatrists and evangelists.

And being insane is not a bad thing every time IMO. A lot of people like Galileo were considered insane for attacking and questioning the prevalent rational fabric of society.

Considering the conventional sane thinking of our times, he wouldn’t have been considered a threat but in a different time and age, he was a heretic and a charlatan just coz he thought beyond the microcosm of the prevalent conventional thinking of his time.

If madmen are a mortal threat to society, then there might be a problem. But a lot of apparently sane people do that too. I mean to say they are a threat to the society too. I wonder what the world would be like if everyone was sane in the same way. It’d be too mechanical IMO.

And insanity is relative IMO; all insane are equally insane but some insane are more equal than others. I refer to insanity here in context of its good, bad or neutral repercussions on society.

John Nash (Remember the movie “A beautiful mind”) wouldn’t be called crazy even if he suffered from schizophrenia (He used to see things; to put it in simple terms – insane enough for Common Man to be considered Insane even though psychologists just consider it “abnormal”.).

What I want to say here is that we can typecast all of them who think and act differently on one of the basest human traits as insane. Osho, Mohammad, Jesus and a lot of prophets have been called crazy in their time. A prophet or a philosopher would not be uneasy with his way of thinking even if it’s opposed to the society. A “madman” would feel uneasy. Maybe it’s more a question of consciousness. A prophet or a master is more conscious; that’s why we misunderstand him. A “madman” is less conscious; that’s why we misunderstand him. But the point is that it’s very difficult to differentiate between both of them.

The lady stripping and a guy drinking out of toilet are harmless IMO. I mean we all used to roam naked a few million years back. Now we’re socially conditioned to be shocked when we witness such behavior. Also people used to drink yellow water a century back (I saw “Johnny Cash” movie where prisoners in Folsom Prison had to drink yellow water). We’ve been conditioned to be prejudiced against everything unhygienic. Now we’ve been programmed not to drink “dirty” water. We should study what spurred them to act the way we do coz it’s easier to identify “abnormalities” in such isolated cases than get in touch with the lunacy that is endemic to the point of being invisible and is hence considered natural.

Whenever I wonder if they are really the ones who are trapped and if we’re the ones really free, I come to the conclusion that just the nature of the prison is different.

Madness is a quality which is eerily similar to someone knowing that someone just pee’d in the swimming pool. We identify coz it stands out in the crowd. It wouldn’t bother you if you didn’t know about it. All aberrations aren’t necessarily always good or bad. It’s not like everything else otherwise would be fine. What if sweating in the pool was as disgusting as peeing in there? :)

While we’re on the topic of pee, it’s pretty interesting to note that India’s former Prime Minister Morarji Desai attributed his longevity to his habit of drinking his own urine everyday. The idea sounds disgusting and quite possibly to us but not to him. Everything is not the way it seems to be. Every event and action is essentially neutral. Our perception makes it good or bad. Even Swami Ramdev (The Yoga Guru of Indian Masses) encourages drinking cow urine everyday for maintaining good health. Yucky but it makes sense. Some concepts are so true but so alien to us that they are discarded even before thinking. So a seemingly insane person might be perfectly sane in some other culture – another frame of reference.

Fashions and normality inhibit creativity and freedom. But if this trait becomes a new fashion, it might lead to anarchism.

Recommendation: Chapter 3 What You Can't Say of Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham in which he talks about heresy and the trait of fashion and conventions having less hold on hackers.

Reaper Man
08-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Sounds like you've been reading Foucault.

Jim
08-01-2008, 02:47 PM
so to recap
Insane ppl are in fact ‘insane’ only by a definition that the so-called sane [who r in fact insane] members of our society has determined.
But there r certain ppl in the sane sector of society that who r in fact insane…and there are also so-called insane ppl in psych wards who r actually sane…. but rather they have been misdiagnosed as insane by so called sane ppl who could actually be,depending on ones perspective ….insane themselves.

Mmmm…

hotnewton
08-01-2008, 03:06 PM
i'm the only sane one left.

Jim
08-01-2008, 03:23 PM
we're all insane

in the brain

Reaper Man
08-01-2008, 03:50 PM
we're all insane

in the membrane

fixed.

thanks cypress hill.

Jim
08-01-2008, 03:56 PM
fixed.

thanks cypress hill.

thats what i meant.

amanamagus
08-01-2008, 04:31 PM
so to recap
Insane ppl are in fact ‘insane’ only by a definition that the so-called sane [who r in fact insane(*No ones saying they are insane*)] members of our society has determined.
But there r certain ppl in the sane sector of society that who r in fact insane(*i find myself unable to comment on this coz of lack of clarity and command over language*)…and there are also so-called insane ppl in psych wards who r actually sane(:no:)…. but rather they have been misdiagnosed as insane by so called sane ppl who could actually be,depending on ones perspective ….insane themselves.(:yes:)

Mmmm…

hmm....

amanamagus
08-01-2008, 04:32 PM
Sounds like you've been reading Foucault.
Didnt knew about him but now that you've mentioned, I will.

Reaper Man
08-01-2008, 06:08 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Madness-Civilization-History-Insanity-Reason/dp/067972110X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217610440&sr=8-1

amanamagus
08-03-2008, 06:01 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Madness-Civilization-History-Insanity-Reason/dp/067972110X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217610440&sr=8-1
Thanks. I got that from scribd.

ninjashoes
08-03-2008, 08:24 AM
I liked it until you started trying to get me to drink pee

Lord Krishna
08-03-2008, 10:03 AM
there is no scientific evidence that drinking urine is in any way benificial. Even if it was, it's a fucking gross thing to do.

Lord Krishna
08-03-2008, 10:07 AM
it's funny how resin and ninja get grossed out by the drinking urine part when they probably have seen 2girls and 1 cup like a million times.

amanamagus
08-03-2008, 11:44 AM
I liked it until you started trying to get me to drink pee

I'm not trying to get to you to drink pee. I was just giving an example of an irrational behavior which appears rational to someone in another frame of reference.

This is exactly why your country is complete dog shit.

You still haven't answered me Resin. Stay in your cocoon. Come up with something entertaining the next time around.

there is no scientific evidence that drinking urine is in any way beneficial. Even if it was, it's a fucking gross thing to do.

I dont know or care whether there's an evidence in favor or against it. But you do get my point. Dont you?

amanamagus
08-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Also gross is also just a way of looking at something - a point of view. You are still in a frame of reference - a specific social programming. Eating insects, snakes and lizards is considered gross. Eating non vegetarian is "considered" wrong too.

Lord Krishna
08-03-2008, 12:32 PM
Fuck that, did u watch singh is king yet?

GOD
08-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Aman,Lord Krishna=PWN

Lord Krishna
08-03-2008, 12:53 PM
Aman,Lord Krishna=PWN

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amanamagus
08-03-2008, 02:20 PM
Fuck that, did u watch singh is king yet?
Not yet. :wah: Did you? I'ma dl it from teh torrentz.

Lord Krishna
08-03-2008, 03:08 PM
not yet, but i saw batman recently and it was really pwn

RoryZilla
08-03-2008, 08:49 PM
What is madness?

An english Ska band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madness_%28band%29

lancaster
08-06-2008, 11:31 AM
There's two different types of insanity. Firstly there are mental disorders, which have a biological basis. Secondly there is having a differing belief from the majority. Your examples of Morarji Desai and Galileo fall into the second category.

What is interesting is that often the beliefs of the majority are delusional. So we see people who hold rational beliefs being labelled as insane by the majority that hold an irrational belief.

amanamagus
08-06-2008, 12:47 PM
There's two different types of insanity. Firstly there are mental disorders, which have a biological basis. Secondly there is having a differing belief from the majority. Your examples of Morarji Desai and Galileo fall into the second category.

What is interesting is that often the beliefs of the majority are delusional. So we see people who hold rational beliefs being labelled as insane by the majority that hold an irrational belief.
But its difficult to determine which is which sometime. You might say that madness(having different beliefs) have 2 categories: But they both relating to mind.

An idea by a highly evolved consciousness wont make sense to the mass. Likewise, someone really below the common level of consciousness, wont make any sense to us either. Both of them would be convinced they're true. Both would be wrong outside their frame of reference.

Rob
08-07-2008, 11:30 AM
When you speak of those who are insane but believe in themselves, people like Galileo who questioned and challenged established concepts you said that they shouldn’t be considered insane because they believe in their ideas. Well I’d like to relate this to the concept of immorality and amorality.

The person who is immoral will do things that are wrong, knowing perfectly well that these actions are indeed immoral and aren’t ethically correct. An amoral person on the other hand can do the exact same things but not be able to fathom that what they have done is wrong. These two people I believe can be related to those who you say are considered to be insane by society and those who are simply madmen. What the amoral person did is still immoral even if he doesn’t think it is.

I understand your ideas concerning society being in a frame of reference and that the frames of reference have been created by others and it has become a standard. Having said this I believe that what we now accept as insane or how our perspectives have evolved over centuries are generally the way they should be.

A society that allows children to have intercourse with adults either millennia ago or simply in other societies should be labelled as insane or immoral even if they consider this to be normal and perfectly acceptable. I’m sure we can all present arguments why this is insane but I don’t want to turn this into a discussion focused on pedophilia. On the contrary I’m trying to communicate my perspective that what we now consider insane generally is.

Returning to your example of Galileo, his ideas were considered insane because theories concerning the Earth had been in practice for hundreds years. His label of insanity and his work being mad was lifted when what he theorised was accepted after evidence for his revelation was collected. Today in science many people claim new concepts but shouldn’t be accepted until they can be proven and supported by extensive evidence no matter how certain the researcher may be. In Galileo’s time what he tried to teach was shunned because society did not understand it at that point.

Many customs throughout the world can be considered mad to members of different societies but essentially drinking urine, as in your example which is a waste product should be considered insane. The properties of cow manure have been discovered to hold many beneficial bacteria which can be used to improve some conditions if rubbed on the skin. Having said this I would still consider this to be mad because rubbing waste on your body straight from either an animal or a human bewilders the mind because such a thing is waste. Scat anyone?

amanamagus
08-07-2008, 03:00 PM
I was saying that “insane” believe in themselves with such conviction that they don’t care about what society thinks about them. Their belief is generally based on ideas which are alien to the prevalent perceptions of the society.

Wrong and right are very subjective terms. There are things which are ABSOLUTELY wrong (like murder) and there are things which are wrong in cultural context. Which are RELATIVELY wrong (For example, like they cut hands of all the thieves in Saudi Arabia. They issued fatwa of death against Rushdie for heresy. I think Jesus, Moses and prophets/saints in India, Tolstoy (If I remember correctly) were all considered insane. Whatever concept is alien to us, something which questions are most intuitive beliefs – something we regard as obvious is termed as heresy or a sign of madness.

Regarding the society moving towards being a perfect one, I‘m skeptical about it. I do agree, nevertheless, with your idea that we, the people have evolved a lot, both materially and mentally. But we’ve devolved spiritually – if something like spirit does exist. And there probably has been a trade off – the more we develop, we become less receptive to evolution - Like we’ve become dependent on modern amenities – like electricity. We need to control our environment. Also we’re open minded but we still draw a line somewhere. :). People who burned widows with the pyre of their husbands (Custom of sati), were also considered reasonable in their times and society. Sanity is getting standardized all over the world with globalization and liberalization.

People in all ages were of the view that their age is as close to utopia as it ever can get. 60s and 70s might be a good example in that respect. Why could our society be any different? Think about an example, infidelity, porn, beastiality and incest are still looked down upon by societies. I’m not in favor or opposition of either – the point is that we still have views which we think might be wrong but we generally assume to be true because its convenient for us to believe so – who would like to confront society on an issue he’s got no issues with? Who’ll want to be some one else’s freedom fighter, someone else’s martyr?

The thing is that society cannot be standardized. Fashions – both cultural and mental exist as background processes in all ages and all other ages think of them as ridiculous. I think R.L. Stevenson spoke out against short forms as butchering of English language. We’re all ok with that. I was just watching an old video and was ashamed of the way I danced in there. That was cool then but its uncool now. Why? Because a man got sick of moving that way and chose to dance DIFFERENT. And people followed them so that they could qualify as DIFFERENT too. But that “being different” soon became a standard and society as a whole confirmed it as the in-thing.

Let’s consider pedophilia. We are all concerned about it because mostly kids that age are immature and not ready to understand or appreciate the meaning of sex. But we forget that maturity and wisdom is not a function of age. We generally agree upon the fact that we learn and grow with experience and experiences come with time. We completely disregard the amount of contemplation and introspection one has to do. Subconsciously, till one is ready for sex. Please note that sex is just an example of any thing which is considered an appropriate thing to do when he attains certain age (omg I’m confused right now and I’m sure that there’s more to it than meets the eye.).

I don’t think proof is the only way to know whether a thing exists or not or whether a phenomenon takes place the way we think it does. It only proves that a certain thing is in purview of human comprehension. Sometimes we intuitively feel that something exists but are not able to prove it.

I agree that human potential is infinite. But ideas and methods take time to develop. They are built upon former ideas by questioning, reasoning and improvising. For example, take anatomy, long time back, people who studied anatomy didn’t see the need to actually dissect human body. They formed this area of study based on theories which they thought were true and with methods which they thought will produce most accurate results. Centuries later, a man(he was insane in context of his time at this point of time – insane till proven the standard for prevalent sanity) got curious and thought about actually verifying the texts by illegally, needlessly digging the graves and finding out that they all had been inaccurate for centuries.

Fuck that was a lot of writing for right now. Thanks for your post robert. Really made me think.

P.S. Please consider the ideas in the context of which I speak. The examples of porn, infidelity, beastiality, pedophilia and incest should be taken in context. I dont support any of these and was just commenting to illustrate my point since I couldnt think of any other example at this point of time.

lancaster
08-07-2008, 04:09 PM
Good post Rob.

Having said this I believe that what we now accept as insane or how our perspectives have evolved over centuries are generally the way they should be.

If we look back 100 years, we see things that we would today consider immoral - slavery, child labor, legally being able to marry a 13 year old. If we fast forward 100 years, the people of the future will surely be able to see many of the things that we do as immoral. In that respect insanity is related to the zeitgeist.

On the contrary I’m trying to communicate my perspective that what we now consider insane generally is.

Is, as in relative to the current time or as against some absolute measuring stick?

lancaster
08-07-2008, 04:16 PM
There are things which are ABSOLUTELY wrong (like murder)

I'm not sure I can agree with morality being absolute. I can only think of a handful of things that I believe are absolutely wrong, such as torture. However I can't think of anything that is absolutely right. Does this mean that morality only concerns itself with what is wrong and not with what is right?

The vast majority of our morality are relative, with only a few absolute morals. This implies, to me at least, that the handful are really relative and it is only my prejudices that make me belief they are absolute.

Can anyone give me a compelling argument for the existence of absolute morality?

Chaz
08-14-2008, 10:48 AM
Vicodin, Soma, Xanax, Testosterone, Nandrolone and Clomid sent my body into a psychotic reactive state which sent me into madness and I was lucky not to hurt anyone but there was no fear of death no fear of anything and insane crazy strength. I now understand exactly what madness is because I was there once upon a time.