In 1963, Madalyn Murray was the plaintiff in a landmark Supreme Court case which helped end the unconstitutional practice of forced prayer and coercive bible recitation in the public schools of America. What was the name of that case? (Hint: It was combined with a similar case, Arbington Township v. Schempp, and they were decided together.

Murray v. Curlett. The Murray family insisted that it be known that they were opposed to the practice of forced bible reading and coercive prayer recitation in public schools because they were atheists, so the following statement was drawn up to explain what an atheist is. "Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist thinks that heaven is something for which we should work for now - here on earth- for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, subdue and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. "Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to 'know' a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter. He knows that we are our brothers' keepers in that we are, first, keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now." (Copied from http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/petitioners.html)

Good post. Repped.

her son is a strong preacher now too. Thats funny. He grew up atheist and found there was nothing and turned to God for help.

Her son also claimed "My mother was an evil person". When his mother went missing, he attempted to gain "gardianship" over her assets.

5. Honor thy mother and thy father.
8. Thou shalt not steal
10. Thou shalt not covet.

If he turned to God for help, then it's pretty obvious that he didn't get any.

There are good hearted people that don't believen God, no question.

i dont know what to believe anymore. lol

She was insane... good role model.

She was insane... good role model.

how was she insane? this type of thinking started the crusades.

atheists are insane as well. That's generally what should be seen as an established fact.


Hey... did you know that 70 million Christians have been martyred for their belief. And continues at a rate of 170,000 per year.

thats a cult mentality^.
Declare those who oppose our beliefs insane thus rendering their views obsolete and irrelevant.
eeek

I don't think athiest are insane, then they wouldn't be accountable for their choices.

yeah they really do think that they AREN'T accountable for their choices. That's what makes them insane

yeah they really do think that they AREN'T accountable for their choices. That's what makes them insane

i am accountable for every choice I make. I wouldn't have it any other way.

yeah they really do think that they AREN'T accountable for their choices. That's what makes them insane

Freewill vs God's divine plan anyone? What is more insane then this?

Freewill vs God's divine plan anyone? What is more insane then this?

Do you consider free will the ability to do what you want or the ability to do what you want without being caused by something prior?

yeah they really do think that they AREN'T accountable for their choices. That's what makes them insane

its odd that u label me insane when im fully aware that i'm accountable for my decisions.
Its stupid actually.

atheists have been labelling Christians insane for centuries. Kinda sucks huh.

atheists have been labelling Christians insane for centuries. Kinda sucks huh.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

Atheism is a faith based religion just like Christianity because you have to have faith that there is no god.

Atheism is a faith based religion just like Christianity because you have to have faith that there is no god.

If you don't believe in the easter bunny, is this also a faith based religion?

If you don't believe in the easter bunny, is this also a faith based religion?

Well obviously it would be. What is the basic idea behind the great bunny and what fact do you have to support this magic rabbit, I'm very open to new schools of thought ^_^ :P

Do you consider free will the ability to do what you want or the ability to do what you want without being caused by something prior?

the latter

Also,

speaking of being accountable for ones actions, I find it more logical to hold yourself accountable rather then God's will accountable.

humans are ridiculous.
and i don't believe in them.

humans are ridiculous.
and i don't believe in them.

I love this!!! This is awesome! You are repped!

atheists are insane as well. That's generally what should be seen as an established fact.


Hey... did you know that 70 million Christians have been martyred for their belief. And continues at a rate of 170,000 per year.

I disagree with this statement and think it is naive and judgmental. This thread, first of all is a complete method of generalization. What you guys are all over looking is that every single individual on this planet is different no one shares the exact same beliefs. I personally have friends who are Christians who don't have it the right way and I have even more friends that are Atheists and some of them (not all) just hate on Christian belief and never attack any of my Arabic Muslim friends; which is also the wrong thing to do. I believe that hate is the cause for lashing out on others just because they believe differently and this is why things like the crusades happened because of ignorances and any excuse to hate someone because of whatever excuse we as people can come up with. Even if you are perfect you are beautiful you are sinless (although impossible) people will hate you because of jealously amongst other worldly sins.

humans are ridiculous.
and i don't believe in them.

just take the damn candy and get in the car!

the atheist and his fellow man are god

humans are ridiculous.
and i don't believe in them.

explain plz :popcorn:

Everything in life is a matter of faith.

Everything in life is a matter of faith.

explain plz :popcorn:

explain plz :popcorn:

Life is so complex and confusing that you have to open yourself up to the world around you. You need faith in everything. I need to have faith that my house will stay strong. Or have faith in the food I buy. Or faith in the clocks on the wall to tell the right time. Perhaps you don't believe in god. You have faith in a world with out god. Simple things that we take for granted we have faith in. Everyone has faith.

Life is so complex and confusing that you have to open yourself up to the world around you. You need faith in everything. I need to have faith that my house will stay strong. Or have faith in the food I buy. Or faith in the clocks on the wall to tell the right time. Perhaps you don't believe in god. You have faith in a world with out god. Simple things that we take for granted we have faith in. Everyone has faith.

Of course, you are correct. It is entire POSSIBLE that my clocks could be (I hope not because as it is my first day at the new job my employer will skullfuck me if I am late) and it is possible that my food is poisoned and that my house has been rotted out with termites and will collapse today with me inside it.

All these things are definite possibilities, and if your wish to call that faith you may. But it is faith of a very different order that religious faith. My clock, for instance, I can corroborate with the light from the outside (suggests that it is at least early), I can also check the clock in my room with other clocks in the house. I can even check with the clock that is reset every hour by the atomic clock in Colorado. If course, it is possible that all of these are inaccurate, but the chance is so remote that my boss would almost certainly not believe me. Likewise, my food could be poisoned and my house could be structurally unsound although, again, I think it unlikely based on the evidence that I have at hand.

I also have faith that everyone around me are not cleverly designed robots that are made to do elaborate psychological tests on me. Possible yes, likely no.

Religious faith, on the other hand, presents me with no obvious evidence to believe. The religious evidence that, say Kent Hovind presents me is bunk and the more vague evidence like "I knew a guy whose sister's roommate's cousin had his colon cancer spontaneously go into remission after he went to church" or the even vaguer "just look at the beautiful baby in my sister's arms...how could there no be a God?" Such clams tend to lack even an operational definition of the term God.

I would be willing to entertain some discussion of properly basic beliefs or some other rejection of evidentialism, but I have a feeling your argument lacked such a level of sophistication.

yeah they really do think that they AREN'T accountable for their choices. That's what makes them insane

How can believing in personal responsibility make you unaccountable for your choices? please stop posting.

Life is so complex and confusing that you have to open yourself up to the world around you. You need faith in everything. I need to have faith that my house will stay strong. Or have faith in the food I buy. Or faith in the clocks on the wall to tell the right time. Perhaps you don't believe in god. You have faith in a world with out god. Simple things that we take for granted we have faith in. Everyone has faith.

I don't need to have faith in my apartment staying strong, because I know it was built well. If it falls down, so be it, that would be a freak accident. I don't need to have faith in my clock because I know I spent alot of money on my clock and it has never let me down, also, there is a clock on my wall and cell phone. Why have complete trust and confidence in the world? It's going to be there whether or not you are.

I know for a fact that we are all going to die...

I dont think loving god stops me from loving fellow human beings regardless of what anyone said. Think for yourself. Can true faith in god exist without a man having faith in man? I dont think so.

I'm bothered when I see these threads. You guys are entitled to be atheists but please dont claim the same morla highground that so-called religious people did earlier.

You guys claim to be tolerant science lovers but I see that you're not. Your attitude doesnt reflects science. Too much jhumping to conclusions and too much "other" dogma.

I'm not claiming to be different though.

Why do you believe those claiming to be religious without finding out whether they actually are or not and make their views reflect all the religious folks in your mind and bring forth crazy theories based on that?

I agree we need hospitals. But does that means we dont need churches? I disagree. We need both. Why does it has be one against the other in all cases. C'mon.

Why does theists or astheists have to choose between loving god or loving man for god's sake?

I think prayer helps and I'm entitled to my opinion even if you think of it as a superstition. Maybe you think that love needs to be evaluated rationally based on strengths and weaknesses of an alliance. I dont think there's any science without some amount of faith involved.

There are good hearted people that don't believen God, no question.

This is the post which has made most sense till now in this thread.

thats a cult mentality^.
Declare those who oppose our beliefs insane thus rendering their views obsolete and irrelevant.
eeek

Agreed.

I don't think athiest are insane, then they wouldn't be accountable for their choices.

Immaterial of what the condition of a man is, he is always responsible for his decisions. The choice is his either way. I wont see his decision as good or bad.

Freewill vs God's divine plan anyone? What is more insane then this?

God's divine plan could be to let us discover ourselves. I'm not sure though.. I aint god. But that allows us to reconcile freewill and god's divine plan.

humans are ridiculous.
and i don't believe in them.

You should let them be till they let you be. That's my philosophy. And that's what my religion says too. Sounds hard to believe?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_underlying_values

# Equality: All humans are equal before God – No discrimination is allowed on the basis of caste, race, sex, creed, origin, color, education, status, wealth, etc. The principles of universal equality and brotherhood are important pillars of Sikhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_religious_philosophy

# Many paths lead to God: – Sikhs are not special; they are not the chosen people of God. Simply calling yourself a Sikh does not bring you salvation. Members of all religions have the same right to liberty as Sikhs.

I disagree with this statement and think it is naive and judgmental. This thread, first of all is a complete method of generalization. What you guys are all over looking is that every single individual on this planet is different no one shares the exact same beliefs. I personally have friends who are Christians who don't have it the right way and I have even more friends that are Atheists and some of them (not all) just hate on Christian belief and never attack any of my Arabic Muslim friends; which is also the wrong thing to do. I believe that hate is the cause for lashing out on others just because they believe differently and this is why things like the crusades happened because of ignorances and any excuse to hate someone because of whatever excuse we as people can come up with. Even if you are perfect you are beautiful you are sinless (although impossible) people will hate you because of jealously amongst other worldly sins.

Thanks for posting bro. Post more.

Of course, you are correct. It is entire POSSIBLE that my clocks could be (I hope not because as it is my first day at the new job my employer will skullfuck me if I am late) and it is possible that my food is poisoned and that my house has been rotted out with termites and will collapse today with me inside it.

All these things are definite possibilities, and if your wish to call that faith you may. But it is faith of a very different order that religious faith. My clock, for instance, I can corroborate with the light from the outside (suggests that it is at least early), I can also check the clock in my room with other clocks in the house. I can even check with the clock that is reset every hour by the atomic clock in Colorado. If course, it is possible that all of these are inaccurate, but the chance is so remote that my boss would almost certainly not believe me. Likewise, my food could be poisoned and my house could be structurally unsound although, again, I think it unlikely based on the evidence that I have at hand.

I also have faith that everyone around me are not cleverly designed robots that are made to do elaborate psychological tests on me. Possible yes, likely no.

Religious faith, on the other hand, presents me with no obvious evidence to believe. The religious evidence that, say Kent Hovind presents me is bunk and the more vague evidence like "I knew a guy whose sister's roommate's cousin had his colon cancer spontaneously go into remission after he went to church" or the even vaguer "just look at the beautiful baby in my sister's arms...how could there no be a God?" Such clams tend to lack even an operational definition of the term God.

I would be willing to entertain some discussion of properly basic beliefs or some other rejection of evidentialism, but I have a feeling your argument lacked such a level of sophistication.

Agreed mostly.

Which of these beliefs (in the link) or traits do you think as unnnatural?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_religious_philosophy

I dont think loving god stops me from loving fellow human beings regardless of what anyone said. Think for yourself. Can true faith in god exist without a man having faith in man? I dont think so.

I'm bothered when I see these threads. You guys are entitled to be atheists but please dont claim the same morla highground that so-called religious people did earlier.

You guys claim to be tolerant science lovers but I see that you're not. Your attitude doesnt reflects science. Too much jhumping to conclusions and too much "other" dogma.

I'm not claiming to be different though.

Why do you believe those claiming to be religious without finding out whether they actually are or not and make their views reflect all the religious folks in your mind and bring forth crazy theories based on that?

I think im fairly tolerant to those whose views differ greatly from mine.
And also i believe that whether one has faith in religion or if he's an aetheist has little to do with who they are inside.
Theres good christians,bad christians,good muslims,bad muslims and good and bad aetheists.Its just a label to me.
More than n e thing else,age and experience is the one factor that has mellowed me.Belief systems rarely change who we are and to label ppl in a way that stereotypes them to a certain belief system is a bland assumption and incorect.
Or more importantly,its very unwise to discard a person as stupid or incompatable with yourself based on differing religious beliefs or lack of religious belief.

You have no belief system or so you say. Funny thing is you believe that truths are different, except yours is more right than everyone else's. Now that's an intolerant bigot. Good job Jimmy boy!

You guys claim to be tolerant science lovers but I see that you're not.

Bleh...this sounds like "tolerant Christ-lovers". There is too much comparison between science and religion around here and in all intellectual discourse. I accept science as a useful and powerful social system of controlled empirical verification and hence knowing. I don't love or hate it.

As to being tolerant, I have never claimed to be and take offense if someone suggests it.

I think prayer helps and I'm entitled to my opinion even if you think of it as a superstition. Maybe you think that love needs to be evaluated rationally based on strengths and weaknesses of an alliance. I dont think there's any science without some amount of faith involved.

The subjectivity of love doesn't make the emotion any less real, despite what Dan Dennett says. However, the reason for love evolving in us has been studied to some extent by biological anthropologists.

As to prayer helping, you need to clarify what you mean by "helping".

You have no belief system or so you say. Funny thing is you believe that truths are different, except yours is more right than everyone else's. Now that's an intolerant bigot. Good job Jimmy boy!

Your reaching dude.
Ive never come on here and said 'i'm more right' than anyone.I just give my opinions at times and if u or others dont agree then so be it.
And how the devil am i intolerant?I tolerate you and your nonsense all the time without getting in a huff.

Bleh...this sounds like "tolerant Christ-lovers". There is too much comparison between science and religion around here and in all intellectual discourse. I accept science as a useful and powerful social system of controlled empirical verification and hence knowing. I don't love or hate it.

As to being tolerant, I have never claimed to be and take offense if someone suggests it.



The subjectivity of love doesn't make the emotion any less real, despite what Dan Dennett says. However, the reason for love evolving in us has been studied to some extent by biological anthropologists.

As to prayer helping, you need to clarify what you mean by "helping".

Agreed that I did go a little too overboard and intolerant there. But that post was made entirely in context of the content of the first post which I think are quite ridiculous. It wasn't directed towards anyone else... except maybe Xcept.

That science statement was made when I read the title of thread itself. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. To me, it sounded like people have to choose between loving god or loving humans and theists choose to abandon humans which seems ridiculous. And since the petitioner according to the first post was a renowned atheist, I was mocking her scientific rational commitment to atheism.



Help certainly isn't some sort of divine intervention but I think faith does brings with itself a strength and resolve and an element of irrationality to solve things and achieve results.

interesting statement at the end... I will have to say from experience, that God works things out in your life, much like the sun coming out from behind a cloud and making your day brighter. You don't notice it as anything out of the normal. But He is always working through us and testing us and making us stronger. That's the most profound thing I can understand about God is how He can do for us great many works and make them seem like nothing happened, when it did. Such as the great many times I should be dead, and I know that God protected me.

interesting statement at the end... I will have to say from experience, that God works things out in your life, much like the sun coming out from behind a cloud and making your day brighter. You don't notice it as anything out of the normal. But He is always working through us and testing us and making us stronger. That's the most profound thing I can understand about God is how He can do for us great many works and make them seem like nothing happened, when it did. Such as the great many times I should be dead, and I know that God protected me.

Maybe he should worry less about your cat mutilating ass and try not giving kids leukemia - that would be "working things out".

Enjoy your ban - we know you are still watching :owned:

I feel bad for the next forum you troll your way over to. My guess is they won't put up with your balderdash anywhere near as long as we did.