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GiantRobotDelux
06-24-2008, 02:51 PM
Pascal's Wager (God is a safe bet)

"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost
nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an
atheist."

This argument is known as Pascal's Wager. It has several flaws.

Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow. Indeed, there
are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there.
This is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a
person is a follower of one religion, he may end up in another
religion's version of hell.

Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true. Suppose you're
believing in the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your
foolishness. Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people
rejecting medicine in favour of prayer.

Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption
that the two possibilities are equally likely -- or at least, that
they are of comparable likelihood. If, in fact, the possibility of
there being a God is close to zero, the argument becomes much less
persuasive. So sadly the argument is only likely to convince those who
believe already.

Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based
on evidence, with some amount of intuition. It is not a matter of will
or cost-benefit analysis.

Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:
1. One does not know whether God exists.
2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does
exist.
3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.

There are two approaches to the argument. The first is to view
Statement 1 as an assumption, and Statement 2 as a consequence of it.
One problem with this approach, in the abstract, is that it creates
information from no information. This is considered invalid in
information theory. Statement 1 indicates one has no information about
God -- but Statement 2 indicates that beneficial information can be
gained from the absolute lack of information about God. This violates
information entropy -- information has been extracted from no
information, at no "cost".

The alternative approach is to claim that Statements 1 and 2 are both
assumptions. The problem with this is that Statement 2 is then
basically an assumption which states the Christian position, and only
a Christian will agree with that assumption. The argument thus
collapses to "If you are a Christian, it is in your interests to
believe in God" -- a rather vacuous tautology, and not the way Pascal
intended the argument to be viewed.

The biggest reason why Pascal's wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes
as a wager. He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at
all whether people believe in him.

lancaster
06-24-2008, 04:21 PM
Good post

GiantRobotDelux
06-24-2008, 07:17 PM
^ thanks

I especially like this part

This is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a
person is a follower of one religion, he may end up in another
religion's version of hell.

lancaster
06-25-2008, 07:05 AM
One problem with this approach, in the abstract, is that it creates
information from no information. This is considered invalid in
information theory. Statement 1 indicates one has no information about
God -- but Statement 2 indicates that beneficial information can be
gained from the absolute lack of information about God. This violates
information entropy -- information has been extracted from no
information, at no "cost".


I liked this part. I haven't heard pascal's wager explained with information theory before.

xcept68
06-25-2008, 11:01 PM
Problem is that over and over again in both the OT and the NT, God talks about all the false religions and things devised or carved idols and how they are blown away by a mere wind and for the people to call upon them to help them that they are nothing. So God Himself tears down those Gods and shows them to be false. This is the main reason that Christians hold no creedence or EVER have to worry about choosing the "wrong view" or going to some other religions "hell" There is but one hell I would do all you can to avoid it.

No other religion has the redemptive power of Christianity. None. This means that everyone in the other religions according to their own works would go to their own hells. I'm sure there are no muslims that have said their 5 prayers daily for their entire life, and avoided such foods always. So yes, you cannot live perfect and all are corrupt before the lord.

I hate to post in here, among all the stupidity, but I was bored and you guys are like looking into ants through a magnifying glass. Interesting worldviews that you have, but then I go back to reality and leave the ants to toil over their mound I stomped on not thinking a second thought about them until I come back to see what amount or work they have done to fix it, only to step on it once again.

basowns
06-26-2008, 12:53 AM
i hardly consider bombing abortion clinics, starting the crusades, the spanish inquisition, religous imperialism and forced conversions of peoples worldwide, the witch hunts, etc etc to be "redemptive"

lancaster
06-26-2008, 01:13 AM
So God Himself tears down those Gods and shows them to be false.

Bible god may have done this in the past but he hasn't done anything for the past 2000 years. Is he dead or just bored with Earth?

When we die we'll just go straight to hell as bible god isn't around anymore to save us. We need to find a new active god that can redeem us.

GiantRobotDelux
06-26-2008, 06:42 AM
just saying the words "God talks about".. is such an brain fart.

GiantRobotDelux
07-14-2008, 10:49 PM
Problem is that over and over again in both the OT and the NT, God talks about all the false religions and things devised or carved idols and how they are blown away by a mere wind and for the people to call upon them to help them that they are nothing. So God Himself tears down those Gods and shows them to be false. This is the main reason that Christians hold no creedence or EVER have to worry about choosing the "wrong view" or going to some other religions "hell" There is but one hell I would do all you can to avoid it.

No other religion has the redemptive power of Christianity. None. This means that everyone in the other religions according to their own works would go to their own hells. I'm sure there are no muslims that have said their 5 prayers daily for their entire life, and avoided such foods always. So yes, you cannot live perfect and all are corrupt before the lord.

I hate to post in here, among all the stupidity, but I was bored and you guys are like looking into ants through a magnifying glass. Interesting worldviews that you have, but then I go back to reality and leave the ants to toil over their mound I stomped on not thinking a second thought about them until I come back to see what amount or work they have done to fix it, only to step on it once again.



One problem with this approach, in the abstract, is that it creates
information from no information. This is considered invalid in
information theory. Statement 1 indicates one has no information about
God -- but Statement 2 indicates that beneficial information can be
gained from the absolute lack of information about God. This violates
information entropy -- information has been extracted from no
information, at no "cost".


Lets chat.