plato

[Cameron]

ok guys ive been trying to move up a weight class for a while now i started lifting on january 7th and weighted 133 i now weight 143 and its march 3rd but i have weighted this more for about 2 weeks. i have switch my ruteen about every week or two weeks at most i have been eating more and better foods suplimenting i think well but i have hit a plato where i cant gain any mas but i have been getting stronger what should i do to get more mass to go up a weight class.

[deegs]

ok, first of all, you gained 10lbs in 3 months. that's not bad at all. don't slow down on the food as that's the most important factor. post your routine and we'll see what we can change.

it may not be your routine and may be due to you not using a progressive scheme. ie, not advancing in weight, reps, speed completed in.


ps, i thought this thread about philosophy.

[blevunly]

I'm with deegs your routine would really help assess what needs to be done.

[Vens]

yeah it would really help asses.

[blevunly]

yeah it would really help asses.

Damn it Ven you catch every typo. Once again :owned:

[hotnewton]

Post routine.

[hotnewton]

and not to be a nitpick suck dick or anything but... plateau

[Cameron]

thanks for the spelling correction hotnewton.

see that the thing i have been upping in weight or changing the rutien every week or 2 weeks. currently im on a ruteen of working specific muscle groups every day

monday
chest
12 reps x 3 sets of incline dumbell press
12 reps x 3 sets of incline dumbell fly
12 reps x 3 sets of decline dumbell press
12 reps x 3 sets of decline dumbell fly
12 reps x 3 sets of flat dumbell press
12 reps x 3 sets of flat dumbell fly

back
12 reps x 3 sets of latpull downs
12 reps x 3 sets of seated row machiens
12 reps x 3 sets of dumbell rows
12 reps x 3 sets of bent over rows

tuesday
biceps
12 reps x 3 sets of seated incline curls
12 reps x 3 sets of isolated curles
12 reps x 3 sets of hammer curles
12 reps x 3 sets of preacher curl

triceps
12 reps x 3 sets of scull crushers
12 reps x 3 sets of over head amr extensions
12 reps x 3 sets of weighted dips
12 reps x 3 sets of tricep pull downs

wednesday
cardio
i do the team quest grappling condictioning drill
then curcit training
then bag work

thursday
shoulders
12 reps x 3 sets of up rows
12 reps x 3 sets of military press
12 reps x 3 sets of standing forward arm flys
12 reps x 3 sets of standing side arm extesions

friday
legs
12 reps x 3 sets of weighted lunges
12 reps x 3 sets of squats
12 reps x 3 sets of dead lifts
12 reps x 3 sets of weighted calf raises
12 reps x 3 sets of leg extensions
12 reps x 3 sets of leg curles

i may have the names for the work outs wrong. also could it be my suppliments that im taking. and how much should i have gained in 3 months? is ten pounds good or average or what?

[deegs]

i can't believe you left a whole day for bi's and tri's. dood, if you can do both squats and deads on the same day, you're not working hard enough. i don't have the time to re-write your routine, but essentially, you're gonna be adding alot of ineffective muscle. i know you just wanna gain weight, but why not try to get strong as well?

check out bill starr's 5x5


Monday (Perform them in this order)

1) Bench Press

2) Squats

3) Dynamic rows

Wednesday (Perform them in this order)

1) Military Press

2) Deadlifts

3) Squats

4) Pull-ups

Friday (Perform them in this order)

1) Bench Press

2) Squat

3) Dynamic Rows



figure out the most weight that you can do for 5 reps. pyramid up to about 85-90% of that over 5 sets.

[deegs]

more info on it

http://www.eclipsegym.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57

[Blunt Object [ADR]]

plateau*

[Cameron]

i can't believe you left a whole day for bi's and tri's. dood, if you can do both squats and deads on the same day, you're not working hard enough. i don't have the time to re-write your routine, but essentially, you're gonna be adding alot of ineffective muscle. i know you just wanna gain weight, but why not try to get strong as well?

check out bill starr's 5x5


Monday (Perform them in this order)

1) Bench Press

2) Squats

3) Dynamic rows

Wednesday (Perform them in this order)

1) Military Press

2) Deadlifts

3) Squats

4) Pull-ups

Friday (Perform them in this order)

1) Bench Press

2) Squat

3) Dynamic Rows



figure out the most weight that you can do for 5 reps. pyramid up to about 85-90% of that over 5 sets.


thanks for the info man

[Cameron]

one thing i would like to note is that i read some where that ectomorphic people should work specific groups hard for one day aweek to help gain wieght. im a very ectomprphic guy im really skinny and just started putting on some muscle. is there any truth to that theory for my body type?

[blevunly]

one thing i would like to note is that i read some where that ectomorphic people should work specific groups hard for one day aweek to help gain wieght. im a very ectomprphic guy im really skinny and just started putting on some muscle. is there any truth to that theory for my body type?

Can it work? yes, if you eat enough and do it long enough. Is it the best option? Not by a long shot. You need to use compound movements and heavy weights.

[deegs]

if you wanna add in isolation movements, do them at the end of a workout full of compound movements. just make sure that an iso doesn't replace a compound movement.

[Narbegesicht]

i think the republic was insightful into the mind of Plato but i found myself thinking that he resembles a dictator in his republic, i mean how can you argue for freedom and yet predetermine the lives of the children?

[Blunt Object [ADR]]

i think the republic was insightful into the mind of Plato but i found myself thinking that he resembles a dictator in his republic, i mean how can you argue for freedom and yet predetermine the lives of the children?

exactly

[deegs]

damn, you mexicans are smart

[Cameron]

one last question how often should i switch a rutien or how do i prevent hitting another plateau?

[Blunt Object [ADR]]

routine*

[Cameron]

routine*

ok with out spell check i am a retard and cant spell ok so im sorry.

[Blunt Object [ADR]]

i'm just messing with ya. no worries

[Blunt Object [ADR]]

i think you should switch around 2-4 weeks i suppose or whenever the routine becomes too easy. i dunno if thats right but thats my thought.

[deegs]

only switch AFTER you've hit a plateau. that way, you keep progressing as much as possible. if you are constantly changing up your routine, you never know if you've actually progressed.

just make sure that you keep increasing the poundage, or at least the total reps. once you've stymied, then you can consider changing it up. but otherwise, if you are progressing and adding poundage to your lifts, then technically, you can have the same routine forever.

[Cameron]

thanks guys you helped alot i start my new rutien monday with you guys help and i cant wait.

[donkeypunch]

damn this thread was insightful

good posting deeg you going into exercise science?

[Vens]

routine*

shut up*

[hotnewton]

shut up*

lol

[hotnewton]

only switch AFTER you've hit a plateau. that way, you keep progressing as much as possible. if you are constantly changing up your routine, you never know if you've actually progressed.

just make sure that you keep increasing the poundage, or at least the total reps. once you've stymied, then you can consider changing it up. but otherwise, if you are progressing and adding poundage to your lifts, then technically, you can have the same routine forever.

Deegs once again beats me to the punch.

Technically by adding weight or reps you are doing a new routine every time you go to the gym.

Don't become one of those fitness mag trainers who change their routine every 2-3 weeks to some new Muscle and Fitness Steroid Freak Program because the guy in the pictures has big muscles.

Compound Lifts. More weight and reps each time. If you find you hit the ceiling, get yourself some 1lb weights (or chains cut into 1lb incriments) and try to do your workout by only adding 1 or 2lbs instead of the typical 5lbs that most people tend to use.

[blevunly]

20 rep squats are supposed to be great at adding muscle.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cyberpump24.htm

He says if the 9th and 10th reps aren't hard enough you went to light with the weight.

You might wanna do deegs's program for 3-4 weeks before venturing into these. That'll get you ready for them.

[Narbegesicht]

strength trainining is fun. i miss having a gym membership,

[blevunly]

strength trainining is fun. i miss having a gym membership,

Be cool and get a 300lb olympic weight set for like $200

[Cameron]

this was the best idea for a forum yet

[hotnewton]

20 rep squats are supposed to be great at adding muscle.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cyberpump24.htm

He says if the 9th and 10th reps aren't hard enough you went to light with the weight.

You might wanna do deegs's program for 3-4 weeks before venturing into these. That'll get you ready for them.

When I was heavy into bodybuilding back a couple years these wore me the fuck out.

[blevunly]

When I was heavy into bodybuilding back a couple years these wore me the fuck out.

Yeah they're supposed to be intense, but worth it. How well did they work for you?

[dkcurtis]

ok guys ive been trying to move up a weight class for a while now i started lifting on january 7th and weighted 133 i now weight 143 and its march 3rd but i have weighted this more for about 2 weeks. i have switch my ruteen about every week or two weeks at most i have been eating more and better foods suplimenting i think well but i have hit a plato where i cant gain any mas but i have been getting stronger what should i do to get more mass to go up a weight class.

Aim for about 2.5 lbs a week in bw change; so like 10/month. Use ahomemade weightgainer recipe(you can find some online). They will tend to have less junk carbs and utilize your whey protein that most have already. I would do mostly compound lifts, focusing on the squat i would aim for around 15-20 total reps per exercise each workout ( 3 sets of 5 is usually good fro strength/mass). Try squatting twice a week as long as your weights are going up easily. You will gain doing this ; if not, more shakes.

[dkcurtis]

All plateaus in aesthetics and especially performance, are handled well by the use of periodization. It is is a concept heavily favored by the eastern bloc. I will write more about it later, but you could look it up now.

[jetjaguar]

http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/plato1.jpg

[hotnewton]

Yeah they're supposed to be intense, but worth it. How well did they work for you?

I didn't use them enough to judge their effectiveness... but I just did a set again today.... only used 90lbs... the last 4 reps were tough... I underestimated my strength and thought 90lbs was gonna kill me... but it was still rough...

I don't know if you get it... but maybe you can answer this... after the warmup sets and the actual act of 20 reps... does the guy who wrote the article do anything else? or is he done for the day?

I've read it a few times, still can't figure it out.

[deegs]

you're supposed to to pullups and pullovers if you can. the pullovers are to help expand your ribs to aid with the breathing. if you've done them right, you shouldn't really be able to do anything else afterwards besides hold in your puke.

hotnewton, i don't know what your 10 rep max in the squat is, but i think that you are supposed to use a weight just below that, for 20 reps. so it should be alot more than 90lbs the point is that after you are worn out from the first 10, through stopping and breathing, you grind out the next 10. without putting the bar down.

[deegs]

ok, i've found a good link. dan whitley says:


"I have heard many different ideas concerning weight selection, and I believe that it is good to begin with the end in mind, especially for a first-timer on this program. Most people can reasonably expect to be squatting their 5-rep max (5RM) for 20 by the 6-week mark.
<!-- calculator here? --> To determine your starting weight, take your current 5RM and subtract 5 lbs for each scheduled workout. So, if your current 5RM is 315 lbs and you are planning to train three times per week for 6 weeks (18 workouts), you should begin with 225 lbs, as 18 workouts x 5lbs per workout = 90lbs. Subtract 90 from 315 and you get 225. Simple enough."



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/irontamer5.htm

all of the other stuff seems a bit excessive to me. i would stick to squats, pulls/rows, and a push movement.

[Cameron]

deegs your bomb

[blevunly]

All plateaus in aesthetics and especially performance, are handled well by the use of periodization. It is is a concept heavily favored by the eastern bloc. I will write more about it later, but you could look it up now.

Just about every strength and conditioning program is periodized.

[blevunly]

I didn't use them enough to judge their effectiveness... but I just did a set again today.... only used 90lbs... the last 4 reps were tough... I underestimated my strength and thought 90lbs was gonna kill me... but it was still rough...

I don't know if you get it... but maybe you can answer this... after the warmup sets and the actual act of 20 reps... does the guy who wrote the article do anything else? or is he done for the day?

I've read it a few times, still can't figure it out.

Yeah you're supposed to do exercises after it. I would just do a compound press movement a compound pulling movement, and something for the posterior chain. go for anywhere between 3 and 12 reps(depending on what you've been doing you should aim to switch it up) for 1 to 3 sets.

There are detailed routines for the 20 rep squat if you google it. I don't like them, but i'm sure they're ok.

[hotnewton]

Cool beans. I guess I could've looked harder but I'm lazy and wanted to go to bed.

I knew 90lbs was way too light but I haven't been in the gym doing heavy squats in quite some time so I figured I'd take it slow and get a feel for it.

[dkcurtis]

Just about every strength and conditioning program is periodized.

Good ones are, but the ones most idiots do in the gym (3 sets of 8-12 with the same weight forever) aren't. Wow you're all over me, I haven't suggested anything radical yet.

[blevunly]

Good ones are, but the ones most idiots do in the gym (3 sets of 8-12 with the same weight forever) aren't. Wow you're all over me, I haven't suggested anything radical yet.

I know sorry man. It was really the eastern bloc. that I was commenting on because westerners use it just as much.

[dkcurtis]

I know sorry man. It was really the eastern bloc. that I was commenting on because westerners use it just as much.

Its cool. I meant the modern applications of periodization originated there.

[blevunly]

Its cool. I meant the modern applications of periodization originated there.

Oh, which form of periodization do you prefer?

[dkcurtis]

I know theres linear, undulating, wave etc. but I tend to use a few principles to keep improving load until I stick for a couple weeks. I start a cycle with higher volume then stay on that for some size for awhile until I cant increase load much, then I switch to a 5x5 style kind of and keep decreasing volume until I no longer make linear strength gains.

So I guess I don't really have too strict of a program as far as periodization is concerned. Lately its been like and HST to 5x5 repeat sort of thing. But I believe linear progress should be milked as much as possible. I have been using a lot of stuff at higherastersports as well.

[blevunly]

I know theres linear, undulating, wave etc. but I tend to use a few principles to keep improving load until I stick for a couple weeks. I start a cycle with higher volume then stay on that for some size for awhile until I cant increase load much, then I switch to a 5x5 style kind of and keep decreasing volume until I no longer make linear strength gains.

So I guess I don't really have too strict of a program as far as periodization is concerned. Lately its been like and HST to 5x5 repeat sort of thing. But I believe linear progress should be milked as much as possible. I have been using a lot of stuff at higherastersports as well.

So you take a some what linear approach. Do you train for strength or mass?

Congugate is my favorite, like they over at Westside. As of late though I'm just trying to up my max strength so I keep my reps low like 3 x 3 then 3x5 then 3 x 2 with the final set being a max(and hopefully a PR).

[dkcurtis]

I switch my emphasis from time to time. I was doing strength for ahwile until recently I switched to more mass oriented stuff.
My PRs are 455x3 on DL 500 for 1 on squat

[blevunly]

I switch my emphasis from time to time. I was doing strength for ahwile until recently I switched to more mass oriented stuff.
My PRs are 455x3 on DL 500 for 1 on squat

Yeah once you get that strong it's good to have a hypertrophy stage to help adding strength assuming you still want to. How much you weigh?

[dkcurtis]

212 at 6ft

[blevunly]

212 at 6ft

Damn man you got some nice stats. What are you pressing? Btw are those stats raw or were you wearing a suit, either way they're badass I'm just curious.

[dkcurtis]

Damn man you got some nice stats. What are you pressing? Btw are those stats raw or were you wearing a suit, either way they're badass I'm just curious.

Everything raw. I got those prs like half a year ago. I started to get some sciatica so I backed off heavy deadlifts and they went to shit, right now Id have trouble with like 405 for more than 1 but with dedication and the right routine it would take like 2 months to get back into the zone for prs. Same for squats really because I was up to 485 my numbers fell over the summer then I hit it hard in the fall and got to 500. Right now Ive been doing more full squats and just re-added the parallels and switch up eveyr workout between the two. It is good because I feel stronger in the hole.

Pressing well I just hit a pr this week on bench of 275. Im not good at all with that stuff. I push-pressed 205 a little while back. I dont think my numbers are all that impressive on anything. I don't think I'll compete in powerlifting. I just know when you emphasis one factor for ahwile you make huge gains when switching to the other. Even though in a cycle I would hit both mass and strength there would be a preference for the overall emphais.

When I hit the 500 squat I lost some of the hunger to get stronger cause it was psychologically satisfying. I did really want that 500 dl, I think I couldve gotten it w/out sciatica in a few more weeks before I stopped. If I were to compete in anything I would like to hook up with a strong man club and try that. That would involve bulking a little more, but at the same time I would like to take a fight while im still young(23), and they would interfere as far as my size is concerned. I would prefer to get at 205 or even 185 to be an athletic fighter with enough stamina despite having around 15% bf right now.

Sorry for the autobiography, I was just ranting and thinking out loud.

[blevunly]

Everything raw. I got those prs like half a year ago. I started to get some sciatica so I backed off heavy deadlifts and they went to shit, right now Id have trouble with like 405 for more than 1 but with dedication and the right routine it would take like 2 months to get back into the zone for prs. Same for squats really because I was up to 485 my numbers fell over the summer then I hit it hard in the fall and got to 500. Right now Ive been doing more full squats and just re-added the parallels and switch up eveyr workout between the two. It is good because I feel stronger in the hole.

Pressing well I just hit a pr this week on bench of 275. Im not good at all with that stuff. I push-pressed 205 a little while back. I dont think my numbers are all that impressive on anything. I don't think I'll compete in powerlifting. I just know when you emphasis one factor for ahwile you make huge gains when switching to the other. Even though in a cycle I would hit both mass and strength there would be a preference for the overall emphais.

When I hit the 500 squat I lost some of the hunger to get stronger cause it was psychologically satisfying. I did really want that 500 dl, I think I couldve gotten it w/out sciatica in a few more weeks before I stopped. If I were to compete in anything I would like to hook up with a strong man club and try that. That would involve bulking a little more, but at the same time I would like to take a fight while im still young(23), and they would interfere as far as my size is concerned. I would prefer to get at 205 or even 185 to be an athletic fighter with enough stamina despite having around 15% bf right now.

Sorry for the autobiography, I was just ranting and thinking out loud.

That's good for raw, a suit is supposed to take you to a new level. I always squat atg now it just feels better to me.

Everyone seems to squat more then they deadlift but when I started deadlifting I could get 300lbs(which maxed out my weight set) and at the time I could only squat 200lbs.

Have you ever used supramaximal holds? They really work instant wonders.

I'm really training for explosiveness myself, but I hope I can get to your relative strength level by the time I'm 23

[dkcurtis]

That's good for raw, a suit is supposed to take you to a new level. I always squat atg now it just feels better to me.

Everyone seems to squat more then they deadlift but when I started deadlifting I could get 300lbs(which maxed out my weight set) and at the time I could only squat 200lbs.

Have you ever used supramaximal holds? They really work instant wonders.

I'm really training for explosiveness myself, but I hope I can get to your relative strength level by the time I'm 23

Yea the static holds bump up the deadlift significantly. Thats what I need to do to get back to where I was. Maybe some rack pulls. Yead Id put 500 on and hold it for like 10 secs back when I had that(450 for 3) dl. I also was doing a lot of other gripwork at the time(I was obsessed). but since have tuned it down to mostly stuff done with a thickbar if I feel like it.

About the squat dead comparison: Alot of my buddies have gotten near my dl with a really low squat(near a 300lb 1 rpm) I am still convinced it is in their heads and they are uncomfortable with the weight on their shoulders(probably have them do walkouts).

Also I have been starting to really like cleans, and I agree with people who have said cleans are more a measure of usable functional strength more than a training device (as far as sport is concerned). Im cleaning now and improving because I am learning to perfect details on the lift. But, after I get up there I know an increased squat or maybe dl will be the way to make it grow more. I clean very inconsistenly (not often, but would like to more) with still half -decent no where near perfect form, and have gotten 225 the other day.

[blevunly]

Yea the static holds bump up the deadlift significantly. Thats what I need to do to get back to where I was. Maybe some rack pulls. Yead Id put 500 on and hold it for like 10 secs back when I had that(450 for 3) dl. I also was doing a lot of other gripwork at the time(I was obsessed). but since have tuned it down to mostly stuff done with a thickbar if I feel like it.

About the squat dead comparison: Alot of my buddies have gotten near my dl with a really low squat(near a 300lb 1 rpm) I am still convinced it is in their heads and they are uncomfortable with the weight on their shoulders(probably have them do walkouts).

Also I have been starting to really like cleans, and I agree with people who have said cleans are more a measure of usable functional strength more than a training device (as far as sport is concerned). Im cleaning now and improving because I am learning to perfect details on the lift. But, after I get up there I know an increased squat or maybe dl will be the way to make it grow more. I clean very inconsistenly (not often, but would like to more) with still half -decent no where near perfect form, and have gotten 225 the other day.

Do you mess around wtih the Captains of Crush grippers at all?

Yeah you agree with Kelly Baggett on cleans, but I think if you trained cleans and only cleans they would still improve. I used to clean 160lbs when I could barely squat that and weighed around 155lbs. Btw why clean when you could do less technical explosive lifts?

[dkcurtis]

Do you mess around wtih the Captains of Crush grippers at all?

Yeah you agree with Kelly Baggett on cleans, but I think if you trained cleans and only cleans they would still improve. I used to clean 160lbs when I could barely squat that and weighed around 155lbs. Btw why clean when you could do less technical explosive lifts?

Yea I worked up to almost closing a 2.5 then realized there was no practical reason to be doing it. I was also working a lot with blobs (hacked up old dumbell ends). But specificity is important. And although I like strength training for the hell of it, I want my strength to be applicable to fighting and who doesn't want to look better so that is also a priority. But specificity beaining the name of the game, grip training for fighting=thick bar work.

If I was training for a fight I would drop deadlifts and clean for the 2 or so months leading up to it. Power is more desired, which is gained from the clean. If I were to powerbomb somebody Rampage-style, I would be using cleans as opposed to a deadlift which resembles little skill required in a fight. Besides when using strength, you are exerting yourself more and running down your endurance. The ATP usage from strength, due to the longer time than power, would require greater time to replenish if I am assessing the situation correctly. When in a fight training mode, power is more desirable. This is at least my interpretation of what I have learned as a sport/exercise physiology major.

[blevunly]

Yea I worked up to almost closing a 2.5 then realized there was no practical reason to be doing it. I was also working a lot with blobs (hacked up old dumbell ends). But specificity is important. And although I like strength training for the hell of it, I want my strength to be applicable to fighting and who doesn't want to look better so that is also a priority. But specificity beaining the name of the game, grip training for fighting=thick bar work.

If I was training for a fight I would drop deadlifts and clean for the 2 or so months leading up to it. Power is more desired, which is gained from the clean. If I were to powerbomb somebody Rampage-style, I would be using cleans as opposed to a deadlift which resembles little skill required in a fight. Besides when using strength, you are exerting yourself more and running down your endurance. The ATP usage from strength, due to the longer time than power, would require greater time to replenish if I am assessing the situation correctly. When in a fight training mode, power is more desirable. This is at least my interpretation of what I have learned as a sport/exercise physiology major.

Power stems from max strength so power is like an instant exertion of force whereas max strength takes a little more time, but in the end exerts more force.

You are always using strength no matter what it's just whether you have the explosive capabilities to use the necessary strength instantly or if you take more time to activate your motor units.

Really you should always be training your explosive strength along with your max strength. Ever tried a Westside Barbell method or a Defranco template?

[dkcurtis]

ive heard a lot about them, everyone seems to do well with west side with those maximal days and speed days, but I haven't really read up on it that much, but yea I see ME and DE on a lot of other forums.

[blevunly]

ive heard a lot about them, everyone seems to do well with west side with those maximal days and speed days, but I haven't really read up on it that much, but yea I see ME and DE on a lot of other forums.

Yeah you should incorporate that into your program, so you never lose any max strength or explosive strength. I'm a huge fan of the original Westside. The only problem is that you might not have access to all the bands and stuff they use for DE so you have to tweak it a little.