;262481']how the heck is anything possible without being created? whether you wanna call it God, Allah, Ford, Ninjashoes.... everything has to be created at some point.

"everything has to be created at some point." There is no proof for this statement despite what you might think.

It's as silly as someone saying "the earth is flat" many years ago. They are speaking about something they have no concept of, experience with, or knowledge about.

One of the most popular topics for children's books is stories from the Bible. Nearly every one of these bible stories has been altered or watered down to "protect" the minds of innocent children from the horror and shame that is GOD'S WORD. The Bible has maintained its popularity largely due to the illiteracy of its followers. The literal meaning of "illiteracy" is the inability to read, but when we speak of biblical illiteracy we mean the inability to read the bible for oneself. Believers are often raised to trust in the stories that they were taught from their childhood about the Bible and they seldom take the time to read these stories for themselves. The inconsistencies are perpetuated by parents who teach their children the same errors which they were taught when they were young. When adult believers actually do read them, they tend to ignore those portions which don't reflect the watered-down versions they have grown up with. Preachers help maintain the ignorance of their followers by skirting around the unpleasant passages and stories in the Bible, focusing instead on the same old passages such as John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son...". There have been instances where freethinkers, such as Robert Ingersoll, have offered rewards of thousands of dollars to any preacher who would read specific passages directly to their congregation as they are contained in the Bible. No preacher was willing to read these passages. The reasons they don't want their congregations to be informed of the truth are quite simple: the Bible cannot stand up to critical scrutiny. Believers are told that they should rely on FAITH rather than trust what they see with their own eyes. The Bible itself warns that we are not to trust in our own ability to reason or understand (Proverbs 3:5). With that in mind, we now present a rational analysis of some old favorite Bible Stories as well as a few of those ones your local pastor refuses to talk about in Sunday School.

What Follows is based on the irrational belief that an/any actual God(s) exists.


The Creation

The Bible says that in the "beginning" God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) Here's the story they don't tell you:

On the first day of creation this God thought, "Hey, let's have some water here." And poof there was water and God floated around in it. This water was dark and had no form. The Bible called this water, the earth (Genesis 1:2). Then God said, "let's have some light here." Poof we have light. What is the source of this light? We don't know, since this is only the first day of creation and the sun and the stars aren't created until the fourth day (Genesis 1:14). At the end of the first day of creation, God decides that he doesn't want the light and the darkness to be together anymore so he seperates them and calls them day and night. How darkness was able to exist in the presence of light before God seperated them is another of those great biblical mysteries.

On the third day of creation, God gathered up the lower water and formed a flat surface with four corners. These corners are mentioned throughout the Bible (Ezekiel 7:2, Revelations 7:1). From this table of water, God "let the dry land appear." God then made grass, herbs and fruit plants appear on the land. No mention is made of any aquatic plants, but we will trust that God probably made those on this day also. Let's take a look at what the Bible says the earth looks like at this point.

When day 4 rolls around, God finally decides to create the sun, moon, and stars. Where the light of day was coming from on the other three days is a mystery. Perhaps it was simply God's illustrious personality? The Bible says that God made two great lights (the sun and the moon), but we know from exploration that the moon is not a light since it is merely reflecting the light of the sun. The Bible legitimizes the occult practice of astrology on this day by stating that one of the purposes of stars is to serve as "signs" (Genesis 1:14).

On the last working day of the creation, God makes all the rest of the creatures that live on the land to include man. When God decides to make man he says "Let us make man in our image after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26) This passage reveals quite a bit about the true physical nature of God. It tells us that there is more than one God and it tells us that these Gods have a body which has a form and features similar to ours (an image is defined as a representation of the form and features of something), the Gods were able to "create" man in their image by splicing their DNA into that of the primates that were to become man.

The Bible tells us of an instance where a man was stoned to death just because he picked up sticks on God's special day of rest. The man was probably gathering sticks for his family's cooking fire. In this story, the people aren't sure what they should do with this man so they take him to Moses. God then tells Moses that this man must be put to death. God's true sense of mercy and justice are made quite clear in this instance, when a man is put to death for simply picking up sticks. As the attendance at churches across this country continues to decline, we're sure that preachers will wish they could return to the days when those who broke the sabbath and didn't go to church could be executed. If a God created the world, then when we look around this world, we should see the nature of that God reflected. What do we see when we look around? We see life struggling to survive off the suffering of others. Animals are forced to mutilate and devour other animals in order to stay alive. Eat or be eaten. This is the nature of God. When creationists preach that a perfect God created this world, they often ignore the fact that this creation is full of imperfection. Genetic mutations occur in plants and animals which cause handicaps, suffering and injustice. Take, for instance, the mentally retarded child or the child that is born without limbs. If God is supposed to be so perfect, why did he create such a potentially imperfect world? And some people are so naive as to believe that heaven will be perfect, when he can't even get earth right!


Adam and Eve

After God created the earth, he decided to make man so he would have someone to till the earth. When God created the first man, he made him ignorant, like the beasts of the field. Adam, the first man, didn't possess the ability to form concepts of value in his mind. Adam was nothing more than a robot, waiting to do whatever his programmer demanded. God created this man to be the gardener of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:15). It was God's intention that man be a slave in this garden forever without the ability to think for himself or the ability to choose right from wrong. For some strange reason God planted a tree in the garden that would give man the same abilities that God wanted to keep from him. God had also planted another tree in the garden which bestows eternal life.

After promising man a life of turmoil and suffering, God made clothes for Adam and Eve and dressed them. Then God talks to the other Gods and says, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:..." (Genesis 3:22) God then sends man out of the garden and sets up angels to guard the tree of life. God's position of authority over man is safeguarded once more.

The creation

You have to learn how to read the bible. When he said let there be light there was no light created yet this light was himself illuminating the world. The word use for light in the original text is Ore: llumination or (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.). It is not a physical form of light. In Gen 1:14 we see the creation of light sources. The original word here is maw-ore': properly a luminous body or luminary, that is, (abstractly) light (as an element). So you see we need to turn to the original context of the Word to get it's explination.

By the way the bible was written for anyone around the age of 13 to understand because around this age is when you have a true sense of right from wrong.

You mentioned that the moon reflects the light from the sun which is true but have you ever been in a total eclipse? I have it's dark but you can still see. How about a very cloudy night? I have because I come from a tropical country where we have vlouds that black out the moon ad you can still see. Because if you notice Gen. 1:16 it's says he created 2 light one to rule the day and a lesser light to rule the night and he also made the stars. Not only do we have the moon to reflect the light of the sun but the stars give off light. That's why they were made at the same time. HE knows what He's doing.


You also quoted saying in Gen 1:26 that because of this passage there is more than one God. In reading and understanding the bible we come to know that this is Father, Son and Holy Spirit he is talking about when he uses the word "Us". If you read further in Gen 1:27 it says, with my own emphesis, "So God created man in his own image". No it anyone elses image so to say that there are other gods that were in the creation is foolish.

I would keep going on answering all your other quotes but in these forums sometimes it seems foolish because there is no way to have a one on one diologue. This is why when people put out things like what you posted before there really is no way to debate this because when they are teaching this there is no one there to say "no you might be wrong about that" and get into an intellectual dialogue about the matter. It's everybody saying I'm right but no one there saying but why?

id like to think there is but then why would we have peadophiles, rapists and terrorists.

Proverb 3:5 "My son to my wisdom pay attention. To my dicernment incline your ears, so as to gaurd thinking abilities; and may your own lips safegaurd knowledge..."

To me that doesnt sound like we are not supposed to believe in our own abilities, but contrary to that. The rest of this chapter continues as such to push you to be more independent rather than relying on others, which is to be taken in a spiritual and knowledgeable sense rather than physical (i.e. dont believe everything you hear, but you can still accept help from your nieghbor).

As for God making man in his image and saying "make him in OUR image", if anyone has actually read the Bible you find many references to the Holy Trinity, a prime example of this is during Jesus' baptism, when he is dipped, the heaven open ad a light shines down, calling his name, a dove flies past, and Jesus is raised from the lake. God the father speaks, Jesus the son listens, and the dove represents the Holy Spirit.

I'm not gonna go into debating a whole lot of what you said, because that would take forever, but urge you to go check out both sides of everything you've said. The Bible in my opinion, although i believe in it, is more of metaphors representing how we should and shouldnt be. Take Proverbs 3:5 for instance, as it continues it tells on how not to follow strange woman as they lead you to places of sin etc etc...I dont believe this refers to an actual woman, rather temptation referred to as "she". As in, be wearing to not let "her" (temptation) pull you from rightousness.

Now i looked into Abraham pimping his wife, and what you forgot to mention is that upon entering egypt, Abraham had told his wife to pretend she was his sister because she was very beautiful and egytians would kill him becuase of jelousy. Pharoh then gave Abraham goods, rather than killing him, soley to get to his "sister" which angered God. Abraham subsequently was booted out of Egypt, which he wouldnt have been welcomed in the first place was it not for Pharoh's attraction to his wife, as Jews and Egyptians as we know didnt really get along.

As for the serpent pole, i dont believe that to be worshipping. The serpent was chosen as a reminder for the people for what was taking place. The had sinned and so God released poisonous serpents on them. Them lloking at the copper image is more of a reminder of what happens the next time you sin (serpents perhaps) than a worhsipping. It was never asked of them to pray to the copper image, or kneel or any of that sort, rather look as you were bitten and return to ur tents.

Anywho its getting late, g'nite all


Well said.

id like to think there is but then why would we have peadophiles, rapists and terrorists.

That's more of a question of "is there a Satan?"

The willfull decisions of humans choosing sin or perversity is something that God allows because He did not create us to be robots. The existence of evil and evil men does not mean there is no God... it shows that He has given mankind freewill to choose to follow Him or not.

;264674']That's more of a question of "is there a Satan?"

The willfull decisions of humans choosing sin or perversity is something that God allows because He did not create us to be robots. The existence of evil and evil men does not mean there is no God... it shows that He has given mankind freewill to choose to follow Him or not.

I Agree. There are those who don't believe in God but believe in the devil. My question to them is how do you know the devil exist? You can't see him? So for people who don't believe in God and question all of it but say they believe in the devil or in aliens myquestion to you is have you ever seen either of the 2? Just 'cause someone shows you a video with "proof" of a UFO you are willing to say that is real. What about the miracles that happen to people? Is that not real? I know someone personally that had aids from a former life spent as a male prostitute, was into drugs and unprotected sex. He is now married to a woman and is free from aids and has the medical papers to proof that he had the virus and those that show there is no trace of it in his body. How do we explain that? I know one thing that I've read though the bible and studied it and I have found more things to prove right than wrong and I was a non believer myself. I believed more in aliens than in God at one point.

I Agree. There are those who don't believe in God but believe in the devil. My question to them is how do you know the devil exist? You can't see him? So for people who don't believe in God and question all of it but say they believe in the devil or in aliens myquestion to you is have you ever seen either of the 2? Just 'cause someone shows you a video with "proof" of a UFO you are willing to say that is real. What about the miracles that happen to people? Is that not real? I know someone personally that had aids from a former life spent as a male prostitute, was into drugs and unprotected sex. He is now married to a woman and is free from aids and has the medical papers to proof that he had the virus and those that show there is no trace of it in his body. How do we explain that? I know one thing that I've read though the bible and studied it and I have found more things to prove right than wrong and I was a non believer myself. I believed more in aliens than in God at one point.

Concure.

;263850']"everything has to be created at some point." There is no proof for this statement despite what you might think.

It's as silly as someone saying "the earth is flat" many years ago. They are speaking about something they have no concept of, experience with, or knowledge about.

And people used to say in the 15th century that the world was flat yet the Bible which is much older taught us that the world was round Isaiah 40:22: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." There is much more proof of science in the bible. Everything that early man learned "on their own" was already in the bible.

And people used to say in the 15th century that the world was flat yet the Bible which is much older taught us that the world was round Isaiah 40:22: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." There is much more proof of science in the bible. Everything that early man learned "on their own" was already in the bible.

What if I were to take certain phrases from Greek mythology that seemed to be correct? Would this validate the reality of the Greek gods?

;264674']That's more of a question of "is there a Satan?"

The willfull decisions of humans choosing sin or perversity is something that God allows because He did not create us to be robots. The existence of evil and evil men does not mean there is no God... it shows that He has given mankind freewill to choose to follow Him or not.

what im saying is you have chosen god, now heaven forbid someone was to rape and kill your kid. would you feel god had let you down. because you have given yourself to god yet he hasnt protected what is precious to you. you would want to kill that peodaphile yet god wants you to forgive. how could you.

what im saying is you have chosen god, now heaven forbid someone was to rape and kill your kid. would you feel god had let you down. because you have given yourself to god yet he hasnt protected what is precious to you. you would want to kill that peodaphile yet god wants you to forgive. how could you.

and the churchs answer is that the mystery of god is in everything, this will be a test of your faith, blah blah blah, it becomes essentially what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and your faith in the lord will help you through this horrible time.

I will run to church this sunday and thank the good lord Jesus christ and the saints for the wonderous world they have provided us, if we are created in gods own image then what is he capable of?

Is the point of all this to prove God exists. Well then answer me this. In the world we live in today people are required to back up what they say with facts. Why is it that the core of the christian religion is faith and faith is the priciple argument used by the church to prove the existence of God. The only way to truley find god is through faith, please. Its a cyclical argument with no basis in fact. There is no concrete evidence of Gods existence and mankind has been trying to find that evidence since he could read and write. Why is it that so many people in this world are okay with that. Because no other explanation can solve the many mysteries in the world ? We don't understand things so the church says it one of Gods mysteries. Why can't we just say, we don't know yet.

I personally find it impossible to believe the bible.There's just too many contradictions for me.
Here's a few from the OT.[The NT is chocked full as well.]
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

this is stupid. you can make anything look contradictory if you take everything out of context. why don't you go read each of these and see what they're about instead of just copying and pasting something?

Waste of my time reading the bible.Since you noted the out of context theory why don't you actually read it & prove your point.

what im saying is you have chosen god, now heaven forbid someone was to rape and kill your kid. would you feel god had let you down. because you have given yourself to god yet he hasnt protected what is precious to you. you would want to kill that peodaphile yet god wants you to forgive. how could you.

I am a firm believer that the act of forgiveness and the consequences for someone's actions are two completely different things. I can forgive someone yet that does not mean they should not be punished. I don't see how you could see so narrowly that a Christ follower must forgive and therefore, must be a pansy.

Forgiveness is a fairly universally recognized virtue of goodness and many religions preach it. Heck, just being a good human being requires that you forgive others. A person who is incapable or unwilling to forgive others will be a bitter person who in reality will never be able to forgive themself (and self-hatred leads to further acts of perversity).

And this notion that "when bad things happen... it's God's fault" is just as ridiculous. People don't thank God when life is good but they love to blame Him when it's bad.

Listen, we live in a fallen world where bad things happen and people choose to make horrible, perverse decisions. We live in a world where animals attack and natural disasters ruin. We live in a world where people get sick and people die. To blame God is childish. God is not a bellhop who jumps around healing, fixing, and solving the problems that this life brings.

And Jesus Himself told His disciples point blank, "In this life you will have trouble."

God NEVER promised to keep your life from hardship but He did promise to be present with you in the best, and in the worst, of times.

;266572']I am a firm believer that the act of forgiveness and the consequences for someone's actions are two completely different things. I can forgive someone yet that does not mean they should not be punished. I don't see how you could see so narrowly that a Christ follower must forgive and therefore, must be a pansy.

Forgiveness is a fairly universally recognized virtue of goodness and many religions preach it. Heck, just being a good human being requires that you forgive others. A person who is incapable or unwilling to forgive others will be a bitter person who in reality will never be able to forgive themself (and self-hatred leads to further acts of perversity).

And this notion that "when bad things happen... it's God's fault" is just as ridiculous. People don't thank God when life is good but they love to blame Him when it's bad.

Listen, we live in a fallen world where bad things happen and people choose to make horrible, perverse decisions. We live in a world where animals attack and natural disasters ruin. We live in a world where people get sick and people die. To blame God is childish. God is not a bellhop who jumps around healing, fixing, and solving the problems that this life brings.

And Jesus Himself told His disciples point blank, "In this life you will have trouble."

God NEVER promised to keep your life from hardship but He did promise to be present with you in the best, and in the worst, of times.

how could you forgive someone for killing your kid, you are completely brainwashed. religion is a cult. dont forget god made that person that way, with a mind capable of raping kids.

how could you forgive someone for killing your kid, you are completely brainwashed. religion is a cult. dont forget god made that person that way, with a mind capable of raping kids.

God didn't make us that way. God's gift to man was a will of free thinking. He didn't create us to act the way he wanted us to act. If you do right, you will be rewarded in the afterlife, if you don't, you will be punished. Simple as that.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the universe to have created itself. NO amount of scientific research will EVER provide any answer to this question: A lot of intellectuals in the scientific order believe that the universe expanded from 1 particle to what it is now and it keeps growing. Who created that particle? It could not possibly have "popped" out of nowhere.

how could you forgive someone for killing your kid, you are completely brainwashed. religion is a cult. dont forget god made that person that way, with a mind capable of raping kids.

As soon as you convince you are the least likely candidate for something, you are in fact the most self-decieved. You sir, like I, are capable of any number of perverse and inhumane acts if left to ourselves unchecked.

And the same God that made the rapist's mind, made the Mother Theresea's mind (I'm not catholic, she's just a compassionate person that came to mind)... it is God that made their minds, it is not God that made their mind up for them. They each got to choose, like you and I, what we will and will not do.

And how could I forgive someone who killed my kid? Because I believe that the human spirit and mind which is capable of great sick and deviant action is JUST as capable of upright and beautiful action. And you don't know me, you have no idea what I have had to overcome and who I have had to forgive to be a whole and healthy person.

And you're right, some religions brainwash people, but if I remember correctly, the thread is about the existence of God, not the existence man's interpretations or attempts to reach Him. The moment you start seeing God as organized religion, you can be assured... you aren't seeing God.

God didn't make us that way. God's gift to man was a will of free thinking. He didn't create us to act the way he wanted us to act. If you do right, you will be rewarded in the afterlife, if you don't, you will be punished. Simple as that.

I do agree with your notion of free thinking but I thoroughly disagree that if you "do right, you will be rewarded in the afterlife, if you don't, you will be punished." I do not believe God is that mechanical, or a mathmatician, sitting in heaven keeping score of "do's" and "do not's." God is a God of grace, and there is no grace in the "do right" = heaven, "do bad" = hell. There is no love in that and I believe He is a God of love. But don't think He's a pansy, hippy type. He is also a God of justice and truth. As outrageous as His grace is, so is His justice. He is beyond us.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the universe to have created itself. NO amount of scientific research will EVER provide any answer to this question: A lot of intellectuals in the scientific order believe that the universe expanded from 1 particle to what it is now and it keeps growing. Who created that particle? It could not possibly have "popped" out of nowhere.

Agree completely. Life from non-life has stumped science since they began thinking up ways to make science a religion in and of itself. Don't be confused, even evolution takes a leap of faith to believe in.

and the churchs answer is that the mystery of god is in everything, this will be a test of your faith, blah blah blah, it becomes essentially what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and your faith in the lord will help you through this horrible time.

I will run to church this sunday and thank the good lord Jesus christ and the saints for the wonderous world they have provided us, if we are created in gods own image then what is he capable of?

Is the point of all this to prove God exists. Well then answer me this. In the world we live in today people are required to back up what they say with facts. Why is it that the core of the christian religion is faith and faith is the priciple argument used by the church to prove the existence of God. The only way to truley find god is through faith, please. Its a cyclical argument with no basis in fact. There is no concrete evidence of Gods existence and mankind has been trying to find that evidence since he could read and write. Why is it that so many people in this world are okay with that. Because no other explanation can solve the many mysteries in the world ? We don't understand things so the church says it one of Gods mysteries. Why can't we just say, we don't know yet.

You want prove here something for you to chew on. We may never see God until we are in heaven. So we've gathered that we can't see God no one has ever seen him so there is no prove there is a God. Now here is the reason for that the bible teaches that if we truly see the face of God we would die. Dead. Cease to exist. Why? because the only way we can truly see his face is when we are together with him in heaven. Now here is another way we know God exists in the man Jesus The Christ. God said he would send his son to us and sure enough he did. Now here is where you might say well how do you know Jesus existed apart from scripture? I am glad you asked that. Here is some writings from historians who were not Christians:
Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity. At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth." If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ." As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared...

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200. The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."
Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus. So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do. If so, Roman involvement changed their plans! The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus? Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons." But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching. Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . It was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.
Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."
Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!


Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"

^^Friggin' Ray Vander Laan.

Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

I agree--the writings of Tacitus are powerful evidence of the existence of a man known as "Christ". This is paltry evidence even for the existence of Jesus (I think he was a real person though), but it certainly says absolutely nothing about the validity of the Gospels other than the fact that there was (maybe) a person that people referred to as "Christ". It is quite a leap to believe in all the miracles and resurrection simply from a historical confirmation of the existence of a person. It is likely King Arthur existed as well. It is not likely that the met the lady in the lake or had a wizard advisor.

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity. At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth." If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Again, what does this tell us about the validity of scriptures outside of the existence of a historical figure of someone called "Christ"?

Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ." As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared...

This is definitely your weakest source, and most serious Biblical historians and scriptural scholars believe (due to writing style, historical placement, etc.) that this passage was either entirely fabricated or highly rewritten by the early Church (remember the Church had enormous power after Constantine converted).

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200. The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."
Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus. So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do. If so, Roman involvement changed their plans! The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus? Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons." But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching. Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.

I get the impression that you are copying this from somewhere, so I doubt you've actually studied the sources. If you had you would have known that the Talmud was written quite some time after the Gospels came out and after the ideas were being widely propogated throughout the Roman empire. Jews were responding to the Gospels as if they were historical--not because they knew it but because they felt the need to react to something that was being widely accepted as true. The Toledot Yeshu tells a parallel "Jesus" story in which Jesus was the result of a rape and acquired his powers through theivery. This is probably not true. Instead it was a reaction to the growing Christian power in the area.

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . It was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.
Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."
Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

Refer back to the responses to above "evidence". This lends no creedence to the actual Gospel "events". It only says that the was a person and people were worshipping him as a God. This is hardly original.

I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"

So far, even accepting these sources as reliable (with the exception of the Talmud, which is clearly a fabrication--I suggest you actually read into it) we come to the conclusion that there was a man, known as "Christ" who was worshipped after his death as a Godlike figure. Even assuming this is referring to Jesus (because such things could refer to many people) and assuming it is true (because at least Josephus and the Talmud story are fabricated--which are you strongest sources) you still come to no conclusion that the Gospels and the events documented with are at all reliable.




Next time I suggest you do two things:

1) Refer to your actualy sources rather than copying them and presenting them as your own.

2) Actually read primary or secondary texts on the matter.

3) Read something written by a genuine Biblical scholar, such as E.P. Sanders instead of an online article by Probe Ministries who cites Lee Strobel (a man with absolutely no credentials in scriptural studies) as a source.

I agree--the writings of Tacitus are powerful evidence of the existence of a man known as "Christ". This is paltry evidence even for the existence of Jesus (I think he was a real person though), but it certainly says absolutely nothing about the validity of the Gospels other than the fact that there was (maybe) a person that people referred to as "Christ". It is quite a leap to believe in all the miracles and resurrection simply from a historical confirmation of the existence of a person. It is likely King Arthur existed as well. It is not likely that the met the lady in the lake or had a wizard advisor.



Again, what does this tell us about the validity of scriptures outside of the existence of a historical figure of someone called "Christ"?



This is definitely your weakest source, and most serious Biblical historians and scriptural scholars believe (due to writing style, historical placement, etc.) that this passage was either entirely fabricated or highly rewritten by the early Church (remember the Church had enormous power after Constantine converted).



I get the impression that you are copying this from somewhere, so I doubt you've actually studied the sources. If you had you would have known that the Talmud was written quite some time after the Gospels came out and after the ideas were being widely propogated throughout the Roman empire. Jews were responding to the Gospels as if they were historical--not because they knew it but because they felt the need to react to something that was being widely accepted as true. The Toledot Yeshu tells a parallel "Jesus" story in which Jesus was the result of a rape and acquired his powers through theivery. This is probably not true. Instead it was a reaction to the growing Christian power in the area.



Refer back to the responses to above "evidence". This lends no creedence to the actual Gospel "events". It only says that the was a person and people were worshipping him as a God. This is hardly original.



So far, even accepting these sources as reliable (with the exception of the Talmud, which is clearly a fabrication--I suggest you actually read into it) we come to the conclusion that there was a man, known as "Christ" who was worshipped after his death as a Godlike figure. Even assuming this is referring to Jesus (because such things could refer to many people) and assuming it is true (because at least Josephus and the Talmud story are fabricated--which are you strongest sources) you still come to no conclusion that the Gospels and the events documented with are at all reliable.




Next time I suggest you do two things:

1) Refer to your actualy sources rather than copying them and presenting them as your own.

2) Actually read primary or secondary texts on the matter.

3) Read something written by a genuine Biblical scholar, such as E.P. Sanders instead of an online article by Probe Ministries who cites Lee Strobel (a man with absolutely no credentials in scriptural studies) as a source.


1)I never claimed that those were my quotes in any place. 2)I only need one text to tell me the truth about Jesus and God.3) I think Stroble is a great source because he was a very big Atheist before he set out to disprove Christianity and studied texts to find an answer until he found the truth. That there is a God. So he does have scriptural studies. Just 'cause the Pope says he knows the bible doesn't mean anything it is knowing God personally that matters. Even the devil knows the bible he quoted it himself when he was tempting Jesus.

The reason why I know there is a God because I have a little girl to prove it. How you might ask. Well my wife was supposed to be steril according to the doctors. She had a tumor that killed her left ovary and the one she had left was completely covered in small tumors. We were told that she would never be able to get pregnant because of this and she would have complications because of it and her diabetes. Meanwhile we concieved while on birth control. When my wife was checked by the Dr's the tumors in her ovary where completely gone something that was only supposed to happen with surgery. Our baby was born premature due to my wife's diabetes but this was something we were already expecting. We spent 5 months in the ICU with our little one with 3 operation the biggest one where she had more than 1/2 her intestine removed. The Dr told us that there was no chance for her to live because all he was going to do was open her up to see how bad it was and when he saw it he was just going to close her back up and let her die because the infection was so bad. He removed the dead intestine and told us all we could do was wait because she was very sick. He himself told us that he thought she was going to die after the operation because he's never seen any kid recover after having so much intestine removed. She had a botched up blood transfusion. She could have died instantly but she didn't. Today my little one is going to be 1 and kids who have had the operation she had, even thought they didn't remove as much intestine as her, are not as big or eat as much as my little one. if you don't believe me just look at my story http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Health/story?id=1613703&page=1

No man in this world could have saved my daughters life and we weren't lucky because if I was a lucky person I'd be a millionare by now so luck has nothing to do with it. My baby was given a 1:5000 chance of survival now you tell me that those Dr's saved her when all they told us all the time was "she's alive and that's all that matters right now we take it one day at a time". They are amazed when they see how well she is doing now some of them can't believe how much she is eating because they said she was supposed to have issues with her feedings yet she is already eating solid foods. That my friend is the truth about God. When you are faithful and humble yourself before him there is nothing in your life that can't be done when you ask him for it.

C.S. Lewis is a headier version of Stroble.

If someone was happy thinking there is a God when there isn't I wouldn't try to teach them otherwise, for fear of taking some of their happiness away. And vica versa if there is a God and they felt there is no God. Of course this doesn't take the whole possibility of going to hell argument into consideration.

But for those not so happy...

If someone was happy thinking there is a God when there isn't I wouldn't try to teach them otherwise, for fear of taking some of their happiness away. And vica versa if there is a God and they felt there is no God. Of course this doesn't take the whole possibility of going to hell argument into consideration.

But for those not so happy...

Not so my dear friend. I know what it was to live a life without God I was there and I know what it is like to know God now. Trust me from personal experience there is.

That's why I said if they were happy.

1)I never claimed that those were my quotes in any place. 2)I only need one text to tell me the truth about Jesus and God.3) I think Stroble is a great source because he was a very big Atheist before he set out to disprove Christianity and studied texts to find an answer until he found the truth. That there is a God. So he does have scriptural studies. Just 'cause the Pope says he knows the bible doesn't mean anything it is knowing God personally that matters. Even the devil knows the bible he quoted it himself when he was tempting Jesus.

The reason why I know there is a God because I have a little girl to prove it. How you might ask. Well my wife was supposed to be steril according to the doctors. She had a tumor that killed her left ovary and the one she had left was completely covered in small tumors. We were told that she would never be able to get pregnant because of this and she would have complications because of it and her diabetes. Meanwhile we concieved while on birth control. When my wife was checked by the Dr's the tumors in her ovary where completely gone something that was only supposed to happen with surgery. Our baby was born premature due to my wife's diabetes but this was something we were already expecting. We spent 5 months in the ICU with our little one with 3 operation the biggest one where she had more than 1/2 her intestine removed. The Dr told us that there was no chance for her to live because all he was going to do was open her up to see how bad it was and when he saw it he was just going to close her back up and let her die because the infection was so bad. He removed the dead intestine and told us all we could do was wait because she was very sick. He himself told us that he thought she was going to die after the operation because he's never seen any kid recover after having so much intestine removed. She had a botched up blood transfusion. She could have died instantly but she didn't. Today my little one is going to be 1 and kids who have had the operation she had, even thought they didn't remove as much intestine as her, are not as big or eat as much as my little one. if you don't believe me just look at my story http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Health/story?id=1613703&page=1

No man in this world could have saved my daughters life and we weren't lucky because if I was a lucky person I'd be a millionare by now so luck has nothing to do with it. My baby was given a 1:5000 chance of survival now you tell me that those Dr's saved her when all they told us all the time was "she's alive and that's all that matters right now we take it one day at a time". They are amazed when they see how well she is doing now some of them can't believe how much she is eating because they said she was supposed to have issues with her feedings yet she is already eating solid foods. That my friend is the truth about God. When you are faithful and humble yourself before him there is nothing in your life that can't be done when you ask him for it.


i do not agree: that being said, this is the best post i've ever seen, i find your story and faith compelling and I am pleased you shared that. Thanks

That story is stronger than one made up for a movie. I'll pray for her either way.

Storys like that bring out my natural fatherly instincts and make me want to fix everything if I could. If I was in God's position I don't think I could hold back from fixing everything. With my child I sure couldn't.

1)I never claimed that those were my quotes in any place.

You need to state that then or they will be construed as such.

2)I only need one text to tell me the truth about Jesus and God.

Wait--is that the one that tells you you onlt need one text?

3) I think Stroble is a great source because he was a very big Atheist before he set out to disprove Christianity and studied texts to find an answer until he found the truth. That there is a God. So he does have scriptural studies. Just 'cause the Pope says he knows the bible doesn't mean anything it is knowing God personally that matters. Even the devil knows the bible he quoted it himself when he was tempting Jesus.

Please, I don't give shit if Strobel ate babies before he was "born-again"; it doesn't lend any credibility to his statements. He has written to his primary audience--that of fundamentalist Christians. Strobel doesn't even approach serious Biblical scholarship. If you're interested, I can give you some good resources. Strobel is a journalist (rather, was a journalist until he realized his true calling was making bank on selling books to sheep). If you want legitimate information, go to some legitimate sources.

The reason why I know there is a God because I have a little girl to prove it. How you might ask. Well my wife was supposed to be steril according to the doctors. She had a tumor that killed her left ovary and the one she had left was completely covered in small tumors. We were told that she would never be able to get pregnant because of this and she would have complications because of it and her diabetes. Meanwhile we concieved while on birth control. When my wife was checked by the Dr's the tumors in her ovary where completely gone something that was only supposed to happen with surgery. Our baby was born premature due to my wife's diabetes but this was something we were already expecting. We spent 5 months in the ICU with our little one with 3 operation the biggest one where she had more than 1/2 her intestine removed. The Dr told us that there was no chance for her to live because all he was going to do was open her up to see how bad it was and when he saw it he was just going to close her back up and let her die because the infection was so bad. He removed the dead intestine and told us all we could do was wait because she was very sick. He himself told us that he thought she was going to die after the operation because he's never seen any kid recover after having so much intestine removed. She had a botched up blood transfusion. She could have died instantly but she didn't. Today my little one is going to be 1 and kids who have had the operation she had, even thought they didn't remove as much intestine as her, are not as big or eat as much as my little one. if you don't believe me just look at my story http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Health/story?id=1613703&page=1

No man in this world could have saved my daughters life and we weren't lucky because if I was a lucky person I'd be a millionare by now so luck has nothing to do with it. My baby was given a 1:5000 chance of survival now you tell me that those Dr's saved her when all they told us all the time was "she's alive and that's all that matters right now we take it one day at a time". They are amazed when they see how well she is doing now some of them can't believe how much she is eating because they said she was supposed to have issues with her feedings yet she is already eating solid foods. That my friend is the truth about God. When you are faithful and humble yourself before him there is nothing in your life that can't be done when you ask him for it.

Wow, that is quite a story. And I totally believe you. Congrats.

God has truly blessed your family. So what about all the amputee victims that have been faithful and humbled themselves before God? Why haven't they been healed?

Truly the Lord works in mysterious ways...

obviously, yes there is

Yes there is a God. Intelligent and successful people believe so. Doctors and all of the richest men believe so. Sick and drunken people who love MMA as sport dont usually believe so as they are generally close-minded and refuse to accept anything.

I am so fucking sick of debating, so since you aint gonna change your mind, I aint gonna change as well.

There you go and read my sig. Too bad you havent seen a live exorcism, possession, bleeding statues and miracles, HUH ???????

To all the f****** people who denied Christ existence,

please tell me,

How the f*** do you know that Hitler ever existed ??????????

If the proofs stand greater in Christ rather than Hitler, denying it just show the type of thinking you possess.

Yes there is a God. Intelligent and successful people believe so. Doctors and all of the richest men believe so. Sick and drunken people who love MMA as sport dont usually believe so as they are generally close-minded and refuse to accept anything.

I am so fucking sick of debating, so since you aint gonna change your mind, I aint gonna change as well.

There you go and read my sig. Too bad you havent seen a live exorcism, possession, bleeding statues and miracles, HUH ???????

Can you source any of your information above?

In fact there is a fairly strong correlation between education and atheism. Of the National Academy of Science (a group of our most elite scientists) less than 10% believe in God.

I'll change my mind if I'm provided with solid qualitative evidence for God. For example--you show me a bleeding statue that is ACTUALLY blood from the statue, and I'll change my tune.

Wait a moment--do you believe in alien abductions too? After all--there are crop circles everywhere!!

And could you fill me in on how

Designs and Shapes, The Law of Gravity, The Law of Food Chains, The Law of Psychology and Emotions, The Law of Energies.

supports God's existence in any way? Why don't you just say that the Law of Farts Coming Out of Your Butt is evidence as well.

To all the f****** people who denied Christ existence,

please tell me,

How the f*** do you know that Hitler ever existed ??????????

If the proofs stand greater in Christ rather than Hitler, denying it just show the type of thinking you possess.

First of all, the evidence for Christ is nowhere near as strong as the evidence for the existence of Hitler. The existence of Hitler has been verified bvy countless independant sources along with (I would imagine) some eyewitnesses still living. Christ has one primary source--the Gospels (canonical and apocrypha) and the other New Testament writings, written by the followers of Jesus. The only independant sources that verify his existence are incredibly weak. The only ones who even hint at the divinity/magical powers of Jesus were Josephus, whose text is strongly suspected of having been rewritten/edited by most serious Biblical scholars; and the Talmud, which was written by Jews responding to the already popular notion of Jesus in the area and attempting to undermine the idea using a similar, but opposed story. The source in there, the "Toledot Yeshu", claims what he was the child of a rape as well. Are you going to allow that into your evidence?

im a Christian but the Hitler argument is silly. Ive seen video clips of Hitler ffs, his historical existence is beyond doubt of any kind. Historical evidence of Jesus is skimpy. Thats not to say its a indicator of anything in particular though.

Oh and Reaper Man, how do's! :)

Yes!, I believe there is... I also believe in him so much, because his only plan is for us to love each other and be kind to one another, and, that's just what every good father wants...

im a Christian but the Hitler argument is silly. Ive seen video clips of Hitler ffs, his historical existence is beyond doubt of any kind. Historical evidence of Jesus is skimpy. Thats not to say its a indicator of anything in particular though.

Oh and Reaper Man, how do's! :)

Hey there. I thought that might you.

You need to state that then or they will be construed as such.



Wait--is that the one that tells you you onlt need one text?



Please, I don't give shit if Strobel ate babies before he was "born-again"; it doesn't lend any credibility to his statements. He has written to his primary audience--that of fundamentalist Christians. Strobel doesn't even approach serious Biblical scholarship. If you're interested, I can give you some good resources. Strobel is a journalist (rather, was a journalist until he realized his true calling was making bank on selling books to sheep). If you want legitimate information, go to some legitimate sources.



Wow, that is quite a story. And I totally believe you. Congrats.

God has truly blessed your family. So what about all the amputee victims that have been faithful and humbled themselves before God? Why haven't they been healed?

Truly the Lord works in mysterious ways...


You know what I can speak to anyone who doesn't believe until I am blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that I have expreienced soemthing real and I can't force you to expereince the same unless you want to know the truth. So all I can say is in your quest to prove what is true and what isn't I hope you find the truth.

Until then God bless to all.

You know what I can speak to anyone who doesn't believe until I am blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that I have expreienced soemthing real and I can't force you to expereince the same unless you want to know the truth. So all I can say is in your quest to prove what is true and what isn't I hope you find the truth.

Until then God bless to all.

In fact, I have had such an experience. It is a bit of a private one, but if you really must know I will explain it.

That said, why is it necessary to have a religious/spiritual experience to believe in God? Could God honestly damn me (or let me damn myself if you religious types require that distinction) for all eternity because he refused to provide me with a miracle in my life?

Also, why does God refuse to heal the amputees and yet choose to help your daughter? Are all amputees evil bastards that don't deserve to be helped?

In fact, I have had such an experience. It is a bit of a private one, but if you really must know I will explain it.

That said, why is it necessary to have a religious/spiritual experience to believe in God? Could God honestly damn me (or let me damn myself if you religious types require that distinction) for all eternity because he refused to provide me with a miracle in my life?

Also, why does God refuse to heal the amputees and yet choose to help your daughter? Are all amputees evil bastards that don't deserve to be helped?

You don't need to have an experience to believe in God. I am giving you that what happen to me that's one of the reasons I believe. He never said he would damn you if you didn't recieve a miracle either.

O.k. here's your answer, I never said God grew the intestine on my daughter but where man said it was impossible God made it possible. They said she would never have a normal eating pattern like most children yet she eats like a normal baby this is what I am talking about. He kept her from dying, she was given the wrong blood during a transfusion and she should have been dead but yet she's here. This is what I am talking about.

I see where you want to get at with the amputee thing but the thing is that it is not about an external healing is about an internal one. If I lost let's say my legs (God forbid), and I love kickboxing, am I going to blame God and be moping around. No, I take this new challange and I turn it around for the Glory of God . I would pray and look for guidance from above to do the things that I normally did that now I can't do. Everything in life happens for a reason and all things happen for the Glory of God.

Now since the thread is called is there a God? Here are some reason to believe there is:
1. If we believe there is no God then we believe there was no Adam and Eve.
2. Now if there was no A & E (Not the channel) then we know their decendents did not exist.
3. If they didn't exist then we can say that the first 11 chapters of genesis are wrong.

Here is the twist we know that the geniology of the bible is true because history and archeology have proven them so. The places it speaks of are real and most have been found. We know that Jesus lived by accounts of the bible, places mentioned, geniology, and other writers (non-biblical). Now Jesus had to decend from some one and in terms those people descended from some other people all the way to Adam and Eve. Now we can't descened from a myth or a Theory.

You might say this doesn't prove the excistence of God but the places and people do.

The Big bang Theory and the Evolution theory are just that, theories. There is no way to trace them back that's why they are just theories.

God made it possible for us to see he was real by all the accounts left on the earth.

You don't need to have an experience to believe in God. I am giving you that what happen to me that's one of the reasons I believe. He never said he would damn you if you didn't recieve a miracle either.

O.k. here's your answer, I never said God grew the intestine on my daughter but where man said it was impossible God made it possible. They said she would never have a normal eating pattern like most children yet she eats like a normal baby this is what I am talking about. He kept her from dying, she was given the wrong blood during a transfusion and she should have been dead but yet she's here. This is what I am talking about.

I see where you want to get at with the amputee thing but the thing is that it is not about an external healing is about an internal one. If I lost let's say my legs (God forbid), and I love kickboxing, am I going to blame God and be moping around. No, I take this new challange and I turn it around for the Glory of God . I would pray and look for guidance from above to do the things that I normally did that now I can't do. Everything in life happens for a reason and all things happen for the Glory of God.

Okay, the problem I have is you citing your daughter's recovery as "evidence" of a loving God. It's a very nice story and I'm happy that your daughter survived and is doing well, but it is a statistical variant, nothing more. "The man said it was impossible" but what he meant was it was improbable. It is also improbable that people can smoke for 50 years and still live long, cancer-free lives, but it happens. Did God intervene for them? Smoking is a filthy habit and harms those around you. Did God help him because he prayed extra hard?

If the healing that God does is internal, then why do you attribute your daughter's healing to him? That's what I don't understand. I guess I just see a lot of holes in this apparent evidence. It seems like you are looking for evidence rather than trying to objectively collect it.

Now since the thread is called is there a God? Here are some reason to believe there is:
1. If we believe there is no God then we believe there was no Adam and Eve.
2. Now if there was no A & E (Not the channel) then we know their decendents did not exist.
3. If they didn't exist then we can say that the first 11 chapters of genesis are wrong.

If you would like to start a new thread on this that is fine, but it seems as though you have gotten off course. Quick answer:

First, you are assuming that the Bible is inerrant which is highly disputable and (barring fundamentalist apologists) is wrong even to respected Biblical scholars.

Second, can you not accept a metaphorical truth to certain stories of the Bible? The message of the Genesis story is that God created everything and it was good. Outside of that it was modeled after similar mythological stories of the surrounding areas and done to attempt to explain to a tribal and uneducated people how the world came about.

Do Aesop's fable of the mouse removing the thorn from the lion's paw have to be historically accurate to convey a moral lesson?

Here is the twist we know that the geniology of the bible is true because history and archeology have proven them so. The places it speaks of are real and most have been found. We know that Jesus lived by accounts of the bible, places mentioned, geniology, and other writers (non-biblical). Now Jesus had to decend from some one and in terms those people descended from some other people all the way to Adam and Eve. Now we can't descened from a myth or a Theory.

O rly? The Illiad also contains historical and archaeological facts--a great many of them. They also talk about Apollo and Athena chatting with mortals and a guy named Achilles who was invincible everywhere except for his heel. Should we take this into evidence to support the existence of the Greek gods?

The Big bang Theory and the Evolution theory are just that, theories. There is no way to trace them back that's why they are just theories.

God made it possible for us to see he was real by all the accounts left on the earth.

This is far too long an issue to be put to rest right here. Simply put--saying something is a theory does not detract from any validity of the matter. The theory of gravity, the germ theory of disease, the theory of relativity, atomic theory, are all theories. They are not hunches or guesses, they are supported by a massive amount of evidence and data.



Anyways, I thought we were just going to talk about your daughter and other evidence for God. If you have problems with evolution or want to discuss the historical accuracy of the Bible we should start a new thread.

It seems like you are looking for evidence rather than trying to objectively collect it

Thats an noteworthy point.Its human nature that people seek to validate what they already believe.We all like to think our beliefs are true & this validation serves to make one correct.
A christian will attribute their good fortune to jesus,a muslim to allah,a scientologist to Hubbards 'tech' & nothing else will be considered as it invalidates what they believe to be true or would like to believe is true.

NOGOD.jpg

bollocks!

god sez yez.

this is actually a good thread at times

some of these dudes really know their shit and there are some heartwarming stories too

it gets CAMS SEAL OF APPROVAL

which has no value

To all the f****** people who denied Christ existence,

please tell me,

How the f*** do you know that Hitler ever existed ??????????

If the proofs stand greater in Christ rather than Hitler, denying it just show the type of thinking you possess.


thats just fucking retarded

and most of all if you feel so ... aggressive to defend god i would think it just proves there isnt a shred of real evidence of a god. stories written (poorly) in a book written to control the masses by the church.

bah anyone gets so fucking upset other dont share exact beliefs sucks too much preist dic.

i got nutthing against relgion but dont pull the holyier than thou crap it even says the in the book that contradicts itself over and over.

almost made sese there i better start "previewing post"



but the comparison to Hitler pissed me off....

people that believe in god pride themselves on believing in things that are impossible. if youre a believer them you cant be touched. theres no changing your mind because you keep your boundaries for facts involving religion extremely narrow and dont dare venture outside your little box of spirituality that you developed, and were programmed to shelter yourself from the hopelessness of life in that was birthed out of your fear of death, to look for actual facts to your outlandish claims..

+1 for Darwin

yaya like that post

So good arguments for God?

Victory!

So good arguments for God?

Victory!

WRONG

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s258/NINJASHOESDOTNET/fedorgod4nxly1jt6.gif

I believe there is a god, but the way people view him are wrong IMO..

They say he is a loving god, but then if you fuck up, like do something wrong in this shitty world, he will kill you..That doesn't make sense..

I hope there is a god, but peoples beliefs on him are ridiculous, and everything is speculation as well, until proven fact..I can say that god exist, because it's just my belief, and it is an opinion..and in order for it to become a fact, I have to see him..

that's like me reading all of the publications all over the world, bout how fedor is the best fighter in the world, and he can't be touched..I will still be skeptical, and I won't believe it, until I see fedor fight first hand, and same thing with god, until I see him, or until he shows me a sign that he exists, I'm skeptical..

I do hope there is something better than this life, where all we have is death to look forward to, and it is good to have hope. That's why people look to religion and etc..some of them were all former drug addicts, or what not..They are just trying to hold on to something, so they don't fall again..

I believe there is a god, but the way people view him are wrong IMO..

They say he is a loving god, but then if you fuck up, like do something wrong in this shitty world, he will kill you..That doesn't make sense..

I hope there is a god, but peoples beliefs on him are ridiculous, and everything is speculation as well, until proven fact..I can say that god exist, because it's just my belief, and it is an opinion..and in order for it to become a fact, I have to see him..

that's like me reading all of the publications all over the world, bout how fedor is the best fighter in the world, and he can't be touched..I will still be skeptical, and I won't believe it, until I see fedor fight first hand, and same thing with god, until I see him, or until he shows me a sign that he exists, I'm skeptical..

I do hope there is something better than this life, where all we have is death to look forward to, and it is good to have hope. That's why people look to religion and etc..some of them were all former drug addicts, or what not..They are just trying to hold on to something, so they don't fall again..

you woudnt believe in god if you seen him on tv?

BLASPHEMY!

youre going to hell..

you woudnt believe in god if you seen him on tv?

BLASPHEMY!

youre going to hell..

what would he be doing on tv?

what would he be doing on tv?

a coke commercial


jesus=sellout

i thought NIKE bought his rights?!!

I do hope there is something better than this life, where all we have is death to look forward to, and it is good to have hope. That's why people look to religion and etc..some of them were all former drug addicts, or what not..They are just trying to hold on to something, so they don't fall again..

So God is wishful thinking?

Who says death is all we have to look forward to? Don't you think you can make a lasting impression in this world? Is it me or does this strike you as a extremely pessimistic view of life, and a little selfish. Why not enjoy life, make the world the best place we possibly can, raise our kids to be good human beings and focus on goals that don't involve a vengeful sky God?

Why can't we just be good for its own sake? Why can't we have high aspirations without there being a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow as well as the pot of gold?

ya what he said

i like when people type what i would if i could focus for more than ten seconds

So God is wishful thinking?

Who says death is all we have to look forward to? Don't you think you can make a lasting impression in this world? Is it me or does this strike you as a extremely pessimistic view of life, and a little selfish. Why not enjoy life, make the world the best place we possibly can, raise our kids to be good human beings and focus on goals that don't involve a vengeful sky God?

Why can't we just be good for its own sake? Why can't we have high aspirations without there being a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow as well as the pot of gold?

leprechauns > jesus

leprechauns > jesus

+1

:abduct:

oh yeah aliens they exist alright!~

There is no god...

Just because you havent experienced God...You cannot disprove his existence.... All right....can anyone disprove god.... Its just that if you do not believe in god.... you cant/wont experience him.... because you r not willing to see the light..... But he is there...nevertheless .... you believe or not

Just because you havent experienced God...You cannot disprove his existence.... All right....can anyone disprove god.... Its just that if you do not believe in god.... you cant/wont experience him.... because you r not willing to see the light..... But he is there...nevertheless .... you believe or not

can you prove there IS a god? because all of recorded science can explain life through FACTS and scientific journals, which, you can read online; including evidence of the so called "missing link".. so no you cant disprove someone that never existed, but why would you want to? science can back up all of its claims, its the god fanatics that have something to "prove"..

I rather believe in FACT then fairy tales.

It's hard to believe anyone actually wants god to exist the way the christian bible describes him.

I'd reccomend you to read Paulo Coelho's Like a flowing river. There's a story in it titled Raj tells me a story.

Look at it this way, maybe your mind is so busy trying to disprove the god's existence that you cant "see'' god. See I know there were some wrong facts in bible, but the point is Jesus did not wrote bible.

Science has been wrong loads of time. There are even fanatics in science who are not willing to believe in existence of god. Even they don't have open mind. What about miracles?!? How do you explain that. SCIENCE believed yoga and bodybuilding was bad for you.

He is Mr. VASU BHARADWAJ.

Few years back he came back from Nasa while he was doing research on Zoological structure of Venus and moon because of his health problems he got pains in his feet and not getting relief by any medicine. He came back in his home city Surat. His pain kept on increasing after some times his one Ear got totally damaged and doctors told him that he ccould never hear from that ear. There is no solution in this world as your nerve has damaged. Troubles kept increasing day by day then he has to undergo scans and other tests and hence at last Doctors told him that he has a cancer in his brain (Brain tumor) which had grown up to 85% and told him that he was going to die within 15 days and no medicine can save him at that point of time. One treatment called stencils transplant but that also can save you for few months only and also that will cost 22 Hundred thousand rupees. The wife of Mr. Vasu is Sindhi. They have very strong belief in Guru Nanak Dev Ji(The first guru of Sikhs). His sister in law was married to a Sikh. Both the sisters and one friend of Mr. Vasu, Bhai kesar singh advised him for visiting Golden Temple. He got ready on 5 may 2002 they came here. They requested SGPC for Akhand Path(A prayer) on emergency basis. SGPC(The Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) accepted his demand because of his condition, otherwise there is always a booking of approx. 1 year for having Akhand Path of Guru Granth Sahib ji in Golden Temple. Akhand Path started in the room nearby Akal Takht. He was brought there on stretchers as he was he was so weak that he couldn't even walk or sit as there was very less calcium in his bones. You could say that, at that time he was man with only bones. There were strict instructions for him that he can't sit with folded legs as it can break his spinal cord and his whole body can stop working at the same time. He started listening the path very carefully he told that he was enjoying very much at that after 7 to 8 hours when path of Sukhmani Sahib was going, he waked from the stretcher and then he sat with folded legs his wife shouted at him that "what are you doing he told "I don't want to talk with any body. I only want to listen path, I am enjoying it lot, please don't disturb me and also bring one bottle of lemon water and keep it. Now he was sitting and listing path. I don't remember exact time but while listing path he told that one ray of light came from Guru Granth Sahib ji. It was milky in color, entered through his hand, he felt like he put his hand in refrigerator means very cool through his hand. The light went to his ear whose nerve got damaged and then to his brain . After that his damaged ear start working he can clearly listen Gurbani from that ear. After completion of Path the person brought on stretcher went back to his home on his own foot. After reaching Surat when doctors were ready for his treatment called stencils transplant, they took his blood and bone sample for tests and found that there is no cancer in his body, he is totally fit. The well known doctors of India get shocked with this case that how it is possible. But this was a truth. And moreover his eye sight also got cured.

The Address of Mr vasu is
Vasu Baradwaj
701 chinmaya apartment anand mahal road near adajan road behind bhulka

Doctors used to say that yoga was bad and bodybuilding was bad. They have since reversed their opinion.

Now you can say this man was a fake. Its just a hoax. A propaganda. But man I se hope. I sew god.

So i expect an open discussion minus any flaming

I can see that there are quite a few words in this text posted above but I could'nt translate exactly those words from my language to english. If anyone is interested or has doubts...you can ask...Thanx....

I'd reccomend you to read Paulo Coelho's Like a flowing river. There's a story in it titled Raj tells me a story.

Look at it this way, maybe your mind is so busy trying to disprove the god's existence that you cant "see'' god. See I know there were some wrong facts in bible, but the point is Jesus did not wrote bible.

Science has been wrong loads of time. There are even fanatics in science who are not willing to believe in existence of god. Even they don't have open mind. What about miracles?!? How do you explain that. SCIENCE believed yoga and bodybuilding was bad for you.

:um: the bible is the "manual for life" thats the "word of god" if you discount the bible, what do you base your religion on then?

and how many times has science been wrong, and about what?
science = hypothesis, test, variables, conclusion.
that = fact.
the world was created through every single element in our periodic table existing as molecules in space all swarming together, compressing into a tiny dense mass of matter that edventually implodes, and explodes into a "BIG BANG" of enriched atmospheric colonies that can support life. how do we know this? we observe the universe and how it is expanding now, and how fast it is expanding. they multiply that time backwards and come to the conclusion that the world is 6 million years old.. a little bit longer than 9000 years like the bible would have you believe..

as i stated before, the facts are out there. people who have faith in the supernatural keep their margins for knowledge EXTREMELY narrow and tend to make the STUPIDEST GOD DAMN ARGUMENTS.. 2000 years ago you would have been a pagan. 2000 years from now christians will be the pagans of the future and everyone will worship ABRAXAS or some other new god that will lead their weak minds to salvation..

now come at me with some PROOF that science fucked up with evolution, or "intelligent design" by someone that ISNT a fucking lobbyist and bring me one tiny little shred of proof that proves there is a god.. for every one you bring, i will bring 10 for evolution. absence of evidence is evidence of absence..

<<if you discount the bible, what do you base your religion on then?>> I dont understand brother. Can you please elaborate.

<<the world was created through every single element in our periodic table existing as molecules in space all swarming together, compressing into a tiny dense mass of matter that eventually implodes, and explodes into a "BIG BANG" of enriched atmospheric colonies that can support life>> Do you ever wonder where those molecules came from and how did it ACTUALLY might have happened. Do you truly think that any human can truly answer the above said question.

Now its true that my knowledge is very limited in these matters and this is certainly not my field of expertise. I'm willing to learn and must say that the arguments you have presented are compelling and thought to say say the least.

<<people who have faith in the supernatural keep their margins for knowledge EXTREMELY narrow and tend to make the STUPIDEST GOD DAMN ARGUMENTS.. 2000 years ago you would have been a pagan.>> Now why would you say that?!?.

Again I would request everyone to keep this discussion as flame free as possible.

<<if you discount the bible, what do you base your religion on then?>> I dont understand brother. Can you please elaborate.

<<the world was created through every single element in our periodic table existing as molecules in space all swarming together, compressing into a tiny dense mass of matter that eventually implodes, and explodes into a "BIG BANG" of enriched atmospheric colonies that can support life>> Do you ever wonder where those molecules came from and how did it ACTUALLY might have happened. Do you truly think that any human can truly answer the above said question.

Now its true that my knowledge is very limited in these matters and this is certainly not my field of expertise. I'm willing to learn and must say that the arguments you have presented are compelling and thought to say say the least.

<<people who have faith in the supernatural keep their margins for knowledge EXTREMELY narrow and tend to make the STUPIDEST GOD DAMN ARGUMENTS.. 2000 years ago you would have been a pagan.>> Now why would you say that?!?.

Again I would request everyone to keep this discussion as flame free as possible.

1) you said the bible wasnt written by god, but if you downplay the bible, what is there to believe in reguarding christ? memories?

2) those molecules evolved from single cell organisms whose cells started multiplying and dividing at an evolutionary pace. the main ingredient in life = water. without it we would have no life. liquid that was trapped in the atmosphere in the mountains of sweden manifested and gave birth to rain and the 4 seasons.. hence life on earth.

3) i say 2000 years ago you would have been a pagan because it was the dominant religion. history proves that the old gods always become the new gods enemies. and like evolution, religion is constantly changing. and no, i wasnt referring to you as saying the stupidest god damn shit..

one question i love to ask people who dont believe in evolution is have you ever had a flu shot? a flu shot is evolution in its simplest/purest form.. adaptation to survival ala what does not kill you makes you stronger..
the thing is, there IS proof that can back up these claims.
bible thumpers..
meh, all they do is force their faith down your throat. but like i said before, if you have faith, i cant touch you. good for you, but the idealogies you believe in are birthed more from fear than any type of rational thinking..

there is no god

I was merely implying respectfully that bible was not written at the time of christ.(no disrespect or no offence intended. ) coz Jesus could'nt oversee the writing of bible. Hs followers wrote it.
I mean Christ was not available to see whether his message was reflected in Bible.

Question: "Who were the authors of the books of the Bible?"
Answer: Ultimately, above the human authors, the Bible was written by God. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that the Bible was "breathed out" by God. God "superintended" the human authors of the Bible so that while using their own writing styles and personalities, they still recorded exactly what God wanted to be said. The Bible is not dictated from God, but it is perfectly guided and entirely inspired by Him.



Humanly speaking, the Bible was written by approximately 40 men over the course of 1500 years. Isaiah was a prophet, Ezra was a priest, Matthew was a tax-collector, John was a fisherman, Paul was a tentmaker, Moses was a shepherd. Despite being written by approximately 40 authors over approximately 1500 years, the Bible does not contradict itself and does not contain any errors. The authors all present different perspectives, but they all proclaim the same one true God, and the same one way of salvation (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Few of the books of the Bible specifically name their author. Here are the books of the Bible along with the name of who is most assumed by Biblical scholars to be the author, along with the approximate date of authorship:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.

Joshua = Joshua - 1350 B.C.

Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel = Samuel / Nathan / Gad - 1000 - 900 B.C.

1 Kings, 2 Kings = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.

1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah = Ezra - 450 B.C.

Esther = Mordecai - 400 B.C.

Job = Moses - 1400 B.C.

Psalms = several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C.

Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon = Solomon - 900 B.C.

Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C.

Jeremiah, Lamentations = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.

Ezekiel = Ezekiel - 550 B.C.

Daniel = Daniel - 550 B.C.

Hosea = Hosea - 750 B.C.

Joel = Joel - 850 B.C.

Amos = Amos - 750 B.C.

Obadiah = Obadiah - 600 B.C.

Jonah = Jonah - 700 B.C.

Micah = Micah - 700 B.C.

Nahum = Nahum - 650 B.C.

Habakkuk = Habakkuk - 600 B.C.

Zephaniah = Zephaniah - 650 B.C.

Haggai = Haggai - 520 B.C.

Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C.

Malachi = Malachi - 430 B.C.

Matthew = Matthew - 55 A.D.

Mark = John Mark - 50 A.D.

Luke = Luke - 60 A.D.

John = John - 90 A.D.

Acts = Luke - 65 A.D.

Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon = Paul - 50-70 A.D.

Hebrews = unknown, best guesses are Paul, Luke, Barnabas, or Apollos - 65 A.D.

James = James - 45 A.D.

1 Peter, 2 Peter = Peter - 60 A.D.

1 John, 2 John, 3 John = John - 90 A.D.

Jude = Jude - 60 A.D.

Revelation = John - 90 A.D.

I will get back to you after thinking about the other questions you've asked. Sorry if I have offended anyone. No disrespect intended.

youre good man, we're just having a discussion..

the funny thing is, ive had this discussion 876543 times, and its always the same outcome..

and i aint trying to burst anyones bubble, or convert anbody..

its just especially with the whole "intelligent design" garbage flying around, and people claiming to use science to support their theories about god, and then criticize science in the same breath really piss me off.. (not referring to you) and what happens, is theres always going to be some real scientist ready to call them out on their bullshit, and its happened over and over again..

mormons are gay

I don't beleive in evolution though..

that is ridiculous...
The earth has been here approximately 13 billion years, and your gonna tell me that in that little time all of this happened, we became humans out of monkeys, and animals.. That's impossible...

we are to smart for that... We think, we talk, we have emotions, we have gravity, we have energies, all that has to created by something, rather than just evolution...

the god we think is, is not the god we should know.

Humanly speaking, the Bible was written by approximately 40 men over the course of 1500 years. Isaiah was a prophet, Ezra was a priest, Matthew was a tax-collector, John was a fisherman, Paul was a tentmaker, Moses was a shepherd. Despite being written by approximately 40 authors over approximately 1500 years, the Bible does not contradict itself and does not contain any errors. The authors all present different perspectives, but they all proclaim the same one true God, and the same one way of salvation (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Few of the books of the Bible specifically name their author. Here are the books of the Bible along with the name of who is most assumed by Biblical scholars to be the author, along with the approximate date of authorship:

The bible is loaded with contradictions.How anyone can objectively say otherwise is beyond me.
The God of the OT was jealous & angry & seems to have a disreguard for the "thou shalt not kill" commandment:
"The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

I find it unbelievable that the God of the OT can't contain his anger to the point where he's becomes a hypocrite who preaches commandments he himself cannot keep.These are all too human emotions & not the reactions one would expect from a divine & superior intelligence.
The OT God is one who apparantly makes decisions based on anger & jealousy,this is most certainly not my idea of God.
Is God still angry today & plotting to destroy those who have displeased him?Are earthquakes,floods & famines the result of Gods anger & wrath like they were back in the OT days?Are disease & deformity really the result of demons?
Of course not.

I don't beleive in evolution though..

that is ridiculous...
The earth has been here approximately 13 billion years, and your gonna tell me that in that little time all of this happened, we became humans out of monkeys, and animals.. That's impossible...

we are to smart for that... We think, we talk, we have emotions, we have gravity, we have energies, all that has to created by something, rather than just evolution...

the god we think is, is not the god we should know.

we are all apes not monkeys, get it right

FACT > OPINION

/quits

i offer truth that can be backed up, and im shown opinions and intolerance.. just like everytime i have this debate..
i made my argument, as soon as somebody can come through with something concrete to support their claims, dont look for any responses from me here anymore..

/quits

i offer truth that can be backed up, and im shown opinions and intolerance.. just like everytime i have this debate..
i made my argument, as soon as somebody can come through with something concrete to support their claims, dont look for any responses from me here anymore..

I really find your comments very thought provoking. I'd like you to stay in this discussion.

On a sidenote have you studied any religion?!? If yes, which ones.

Thanx.

I really find your comments very thought provoking. I'd like you to stay in this discussion.

On a sidenote have you studied any religion?!? If yes, which ones.

Thanx.

personally i was raised by parents who believe in god, but i was never made to go to church. out of my own interest