Do you think martial arts can make you a bit too comfortable in a tense situation and lead to a huge asskicking due to overconfidence?

yes.

especially if your instructor regularly says things like "you cant spar with it because its too deadly"


also unless its a credible rbsd system its not gonna prepare you for fighting in the street. which is a totally different thing from sparring or fighting in a ring.

"Reality based self-defense" should probably only refer to systems taught to the military for the explict purpose of killing people.

MMA is certainly better than most martial arts, but even in its purest form MMA is still a sport.

Watch this Matt Thornton video he talks about this subject (14:41-17:11)

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Do you think martial arts can make you a bit too comfortable in a tense situation and lead to a huge asskicking due to overconfidence?

Most definitely. When I was in Tae Kwon Do many years ago I witnessed this first hand. People would learn how to throw kicks and punches against a pads and then think they could defend themselves after a couple months of training. It might have worked for them if the attacker was always moving towards them but we know that this is not the case.

"Reality based self-defense" should probably only refer to systems taught to the military for the explict purpose of killing people.

MMA is certainly better than most martial arts, but even in its purest form MMA is still a sport.




disagree with the military thing - people get involved in fights every day. im not talking about the gun and knife type scenario stuff.

geoff thompson does a lot of stuff where they simulate confrontational situations and have all the shouting and pushing thing to try and trigger the adrenal dump. the more your exposed to it the more you can handle it and use it in a real situation. as well as that he has recomendations like having 1 or 2 combinations that you drill that have good power/ simplicity.

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Can martial arts give you a false sense of security?

That's a good question. I think it certainly can, but if taught correctly, regardless of whether or not the art is even effective, you should be less likely to get into a fight as a martial artist.

I mean, the best defense to anything is to not put yourself in stupid situations. If you have a good, humble, moral instructor, and your art actually has philosophy and tradition, then throughout your life you will probably get into less fights.

Most definitely. When I was in Tae Kwon Do many years ago I witnessed this first hand. People would learn how to throw kicks and punches against a pads and then think they could defend themselves after a couple months of training. It might have worked for them if the attacker was always moving towards them but we know that this is not the case.

Well if he's not moving towards you, then he's not really an effective attacker. I mean, you should always be trying to back out of the fight, which kinda forces him to overextend and engage. That's the philosophy anyway, at least in self-defense martial arts. I guess taekwondo isn't really that. Either way, while alot of martial artists are overconfident, it doesn't really matter because they should be less likely to get into fights. I don't know anyone who, because they are overconfident, go walking around with their chest out acting like they are better than everyone. If anything, they are kind of the opposite, just overconfident on the inside.

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i wanna know what you said!

Well if he's not moving towards you, then he's not really an effective attacker. I mean, you should always be trying to back out of the fight, which kinda forces him to overextend and engage. That's the philosophy anyway, at least in self-defense martial arts. I guess taekwondo isn't really that. Either way, while alot of martial artists are overconfident, it doesn't really matter because they should be less likely to get into fights. I don't know anyone who, because they are overconfident, go walking around with their chest out acting like they are better than everyone. If anything, they are kind of the opposite, just overconfident on the inside.


disagree with this. if the situation has gotten to the stage where a fight is inevitable then you go forward and straight through him.....hopefully!

if you mean talk down the situation then i agree.

disagree with this. if the situation has gotten to the stage where a fight is inevitable then you go forward and straight through him.....hopefully!

if you mean talk down the situation then i agree.

Maybe. I guess what I was saying is that it's easier to counter, especially if you're backing away. I mean, if you're moving away from a fight, then the only way for the attacker to really engage is to way overextend. Then you can meet him and redirect him. The attack-defense type stuff you see that seems somewhat choreographed comes from the premise that in order to attack you, he must truely commit himself. If the defender keeps backing up, then you can't really punch him without stepping forward and lunging, at least not in most scenarios, and those kind of attacks are the easiest to deal with using self-defense type stuff. Now if someone throws jabs and combos, it's not really gonna work, but those kind of attacks shouldn't exist unless both guys engage, ie not self-defense. Self-defense means you do everything in your power to avoid the confrontation.

Maybe. I guess what I was saying is that it's easier to counter, especially if you're backing away. I mean, if you're moving away from a fight, then the only way for the attacker to really engage is to way overextend. Then you can meet him and redirect him. The attack-defense type stuff you see that seems somewhat choreographed comes from the premise that in order to attack you, he must truely commit himself. If the defender keeps backing up, then you can't really punch him without stepping forward and lunging, at least not in most scenarios, and those kind of attacks are the easiest to deal with using self-defense type stuff. Now if someone throws jabs and combos, it's not really gonna work, but those kind of attacks shouldn't exist unless both guys engage, ie not self-defense. Self-defense means you do everything in your power to avoid the confrontation.


dont buy it. backing away in a straight line gives the opponent the oppertunity to string together a series of combos and puts you at a disadvantage. i would also suggest that you try to avoid the confrontation all the way up to the point where it is inevitable that its going to turn physical. at that point knocking the fucker out is the best plan of action. it can still legally be classed as self defence if you say you were in fear of your life.

dont buy it. backing away in a straight line gives the opponent the oppertunity to string together a series of combos and puts you at a disadvantage. i would also suggest that you try to avoid the confrontation all the way up to the point where it is inevitable that its going to turn physical. at that point knocking the fucker out is the best plan of action. it can still legally be classed as self defence if you say you were in fear of your life.

Well I didn't say back away in a straight line and nonetheless people don't normal throw coherent combos. I'm just talking about distancing. Even in my JJJ class there is this one chick who stands REALLY far away and I was always bothered because I had to lunge in so far. I guess I could wade in with combos but that's just not a realistic scenario and could be easily avoided with decent footwork and head movement, which we practice. In short, people just don't operate that way, maybe in a ring, not in real life. It's still great to know conventional boxing and wrestling though because a fight can start up close and might not be completely wild and emotional.

Btw I think we've hijacked this thread. I was talking about how the philosophy around a self-defense art should prevent you from getting into fights because of the distancing and passive-agressive style, as well as the morals they typically stand by, so in effect the overconfidence isn't a big deal because you are less confrontational. In a way this all interelates to what I said about the practical applications.

so why do you think this chick stands so far away from you?

so why do you think this chick stands so far away from you?

lol she's a dike anyway.

Well I believe it sure does! Many of these kids take TKD or Karate right? And some of them get a black belt by the age of what...14? And then they walk around like some big shot until they get their heads pounded back into reality. Sometimes you gotta be smart, street smart. You are walking along the path and see a group of punks 10m infront of you. What would you do? Cross the road? Or satisfy your ego by walking right through them?

punks like these?

http://www.thehangoverboys.dk/punks/Punks2.jpg

Yes it can.

But not always.

Some of the most humble people I know are TMA'ists.

Yes it can.

But not always.

Some of the most humble people I know are TMA'ists.

Thanks this is what I was trying to say. False sense of security, maybe. But if you're humbled then it don't really matter cause you are gonna avoid fights.

I don't know if I'm the exception, but my reasoning for training JJ had nothing to do with self-defense. I took it up for sporting purposes. We scrap pretty hard during sparring sessions, and that gives me a sense of security if I were to be forced into a situation where I had to fight. That being said, I am a very non-confrontational person. Whether thats from training, who knows?

Yes it can.

But not always.

Some of the most humble people I know are TMA'ists.

I'm not targetting TMA's specifically, imo Muay Thai or BJJ can give you the same false sense of security.

I mean you can be a great fighter but get destroyed by a well timed sucker punch or a larger physically superior opponent who overwhelms you.

the fact that fighting in the street is nothing like mt is a factor as well... or nothing like bjj....maybe a little like mma but still different.

people dont tend to understand that.

in thai in sparring or a ring fight you walk out to one opponent and you know its gonna be one of 8 possible attacks and its gonna follow rules. maybe if you combine it with bjj its getting closer but its still different.

i was watching tv the other night and it was some cctv footage.

3 guys walk through a pedestrian precinct theres another 2 guys waiting for a taxi.

totally unprovoked one of the 3 walks up behind him and knocks him out with a punch another of the 3 runs round and stabs the boy thats been knocked out while the other boy runs after the knocked out guys friend and stabs him to death.

totally random pointless enexpected outnumbered violence. the guy that died could have been a professional fighter and hes still fucked against 3 guys 2 of which are quite happy to stab cunts to death.

the fact that fighting in the street is nothing like mt is a factor as well... or nothing like bjj....maybe a little like mma but still different.

people dont tend to understand that.

in thai in sparring or a ring fight you walk out to one opponent and you know its gonna be one of 8 possible attacks and its gonna follow rules. maybe if you combine it with bjj its getting closer but its still different.

i was watching tv the other night and it was some cctv footage.

3 guys walk through a pedestrian precinct theres another 2 guys waiting for a taxi.

totally unprovoked one of the 3 walks up behind him and knocks him out with a punch another of the 3 runs round and stabs the boy thats been knocked out while the other boy runs after the knocked out guys friend and stabs him to death.

totally random pointless enexpected outnumbered violence. the guy that died could have been a professional fighter and hes still fucked against 3 guys 2 of which are quite happy to stab cunts to death.

ok... and this relates how? I don't think anyone was trying to say that training a martial art means that you can withstand a blindside sucker punch, a stabby stabby anywhere, or a bullet to the face.

im not sure...

ok - i remember now. the point is the first 3 sentences.

the story just illustrates the point.

There are always some idiots who think they could kick ass in a street fight just because they have a brown belt in karate and then they end up getting pwned.

yeah but its not just karate. i'd say any martial art has it

There are always some idiots who think they could kick ass in a street fight just because they have a brown belt in karate and then they end up getting pwned.


my sister took karate for 6 months. one day her and my younger brother were argueing and she yells "i got a black belt" then he got scared and walked away.

some people just dont care if they get their ass kicked especially convicts, they still are inside prison inside their head, usually life has kicked them around so bad that getting their ass kicked wouldnt be a big deal so they are more willing to fight even though they arent necessarily a badas, they just dont give a fuck and that makes them dangerous since they also arent so afraid of going back to prison

Yeah TMAs and sport MAs can give you a false sense of security, but like aussjj said, if you're secure in your ability and not a dumbass you don't go looking for trouble in the first place. BTJ is right, too, in that despite your best intentions at avoiding a confrontation, some people won't relent. At that point, you've covered your ass legally by saying you don't want to fight. Witnesses will tell the cops that you clearly wanted to avoid it. The second you know you can't get out of a fight, strike first and hard and maul him until it's over.

Ideally, regardless of what MA you train in, you should always have the street somewhere in your mind. These are "martial" arts after all. Think about what you're training and ask if you could pull it off in street circumstances. All that guard work is great in a padded ring, but if you're on your back in the street, you're up the creek. Spinning heel kicks are pretty and might work in a Muay Thai bout, but you waste energy and open yourself up in the street. Moves for the street should be fast and vicious and applicable under pressure. It's best to focus on targets than try to remember techniques. When the guy is coming at you, see what's open (throat, eyes, balls, side of neck/thigh, etc) and just hit it however you best can and repeat. You can apply groundwork in this manner, too. When you're rolling, just think about how or if you could use a certain submission (break in the street), reversal, etc.

I think the translation of MAs from the gym to the street is more mental too. Personally, in the street, I'd try to take the guy out of commission, i.e. breaking something (limbs, neck, etc.) I don't care if the guy is taken away in an ambulance or a hearse. Some people can't live with that. I figure, he made the decision to screw with me, so he has to face the consequences. We're all products of the choices we make. When he saw me, he could have chosen to simply keep to himself and we'd both go home happy. If he chooses to fight, he has to own up to the repercussions so I'm not responsible for what happens to him. I'm just going to make sure I'm the one who goes home in one piece, regardless of how I have to do it.

We live by a certain social code. Society says it's unacceptable to walk up to someone and beat his ass. That said, we're all under an implicit social contract. I won't walk up to you and beat your ass, so you don't walk up to me and beat mine. We essentially protect one another by adhering to this contract. When someone breeches that contract, he's basically saying that the social code doesn't apply to him. If that's the case, then the protection that my adhering to that contract affords him no longer applies to him either. As such, whatever happens to him, serious injury or death, is his own doing.

Whew. That was a philosophical doozy. I realize this is off the original topic, but what do you guys think?

Yeah TMAs and sport MAs can give you a false sense of security, but like aussjj said, if you're secure in your ability and not a dumbass you don't go looking for trouble in the first place. BTJ is right, too, in that despite your best intentions at avoiding a confrontation, some people won't relent. At that point, you've covered your ass legally by saying you don't want to fight. Witnesses will tell the cops that you clearly wanted to avoid it. The second you know you can't get out of a fight, strike first and hard and maul him until it's over.

Ideally, regardless of what MA you train in, you should always have the street somewhere in your mind. These are "martial" arts after all. Think about what you're training and ask if you could pull it off in street circumstances. All that guard work is great in a padded ring, but if you're on your back in the street, you're up the creek. Spinning heel kicks are pretty and might work in a Muay Thai bout, but you waste energy and open yourself up in the street. Moves for the street should be fast and vicious and applicable under pressure. It's best to focus on targets than try to remember techniques. When the guy is coming at you, see what's open (throat, eyes, balls, side of neck/thigh, etc) and just hit it however you best can and repeat. You can apply groundwork in this manner, too. When you're rolling, just think about how or if you could use a certain submission (break in the street), reversal, etc.

I think the translation of MAs from the gym to the street is more mental too. Personally, in the street, I'd try to take the guy out of commission, i.e. breaking something (limbs, neck, etc.) I don't care if the guy is taken away in an ambulance or a hearse. Some people can't live with that. I figure, he made the decision to screw with me, so he has to face the consequences. We're all products of the choices we make. When he saw me, he could have chosen to simply keep to himself and we'd both go home happy. If he chooses to fight, he has to own up to the repercussions so I'm not responsible for what happens to him. I'm just going to make sure I'm the one who goes home in one piece, regardless of how I have to do it.

We live by a certain social code. Society says it's unacceptable to walk up to someone and beat his ass. That said, we're all under an implicit social contract. I won't walk up to you and beat your ass, so you don't walk up to me and beat mine. We essentially protect one another by adhering to this contract. When someone breeches that contract, he's basically saying that the social code doesn't apply to him. If that's the case, then the protection that my adhering to that contract affords him no longer applies to him either. As such, whatever happens to him, serious injury or death, is his own doing.

Whew. That was a philosophical doozy. I realize this is off the original topic, but what do you guys think?


this part is classic!

definatly I knew a guy that was a belt away from black in Kyokushin Karate and he thought he was hot shit. Long story short, street fight, hospital

Yea, definitely! Without a doubt. I have that sense i guess. I couldn't take out a robber if i saw one, though my body thinks so. (And i am skinny as hell.)

This thread was made on my birthday.

I don't want to sound like an internet warrior nobhead, but I have been in many many fights and dangerous situations before I took up BJJ and then MMA and escrima. I will say that as I am used to it I might be lucky as I have the right mentality/awarness of how crazy fuckers out there are.
But some purple in my old club mounted some dude in a streetfight and then got slashed across the neck when the guy pulled out a razorblade. He was obviously luck to be alive.
As well as this point, I think BJJers are sometimes brainwashed into thinking that there is no way to have strategies against multiple opponents, just because their style does not teach it. Even though BJJ is a great art, it has no strategy for even fighting two people. In the UK you will generally be assaulted by at leat two or three people so you should at least have some strategy of what to do. But on the other hand BJJ has helped me in many situations with dangerous individuals and mentally disturbed people you unfortunately come across on public transport.(I live in London, so a lot of loons lol)
I think Geoff thompson does the best stuff on real self defence as he combines lots of martial arts training with real fight experience. Probably the best martial art instructor in the world IMO.
I am older now and rarely if ever get into physical confrontations as I do not have to protect myself like when I was younger and so I now train for relaxation and not SD but I still always tell my mma and bjj buddies not to assume that if they get in a row outside the pub that the fella won't stab them up or bite their ear.
Having watched that human weapon krav maga episode really influenced my thinking.

Having said that I should also say that I think MT,BJJ and MMA are some of the best training you can do for SD.
Hope that made sense

Just dry hump them, or try to rape them.
They won't want to fight after that..
they will leave wanting to see a counselor or take a shower.

KRAV MAGA..its sensible and simple form of self defence.....

I spose that is were the discipline comes into hand. I dont think that you really are over cofident if you are in a tense situation. Well atleast i am not.

I've been in plenty of street fights and knife attacks had guns pulled on me and been in jail. By having a previously rehearsed trained strategy your mind will not go into a panic and your body will not freeze up and you'll have a plan of attack.It will and has saved my life, and you dont have to be in the military like that other douche bag said,I'm an average man living in the projects. Your best move is to be very aggresive,have a killer instinct and don't be afraid to rip someone's ear off.Believe me from my experience I tried the peaceful non-combatant approach and you get your ass kicked even harder because it shows weakness and you will end up in a hospital with major surgery.Striking as hard and fast as you can and escaping is your best defense.Just like in the jungle the predators attack the weak and timid so don't be a pussy.

i knew a dude who was a BB in hapkido or akido or one of them kido's and he decided he didnt want to pay me in a poker game so i called him a bitch and then the whole fight went to him saying he didnt want to kill me and he has a bb blah blah...i was the one who didnt want to fight but the fuck owed me 250 so when he went to walk away a grab his shoulder and the fucker karate chopped me, literally he fucking karate chopped me so i gave him a right staight and he tried to grab my wrist or something so i picked him up dropped him on his face and put my knee into his head...i ended up looking in his wallet for my money and he only had 40 on him that fucker was soo cocky bc he had a bb that he wasnt even on planning to pay anyone...

thats my overconfidence story

I found that while my karate probably gave me a false sense of security, I was a very mellow person from doing it as it got rid of a lot of my aggression


...which is why I plan to take it up again asap, as bad thoughts are creeping into my head and I might very well get owned one day

Ask the people who thought Tae Bo would work in a real street situation.