Here is what one guy said said about tyson not being good:

"I dont see how you could possibly call Tyson just a puncher without strategy, have you not seen his incredible agility, speed and defense?


Agility and Speed yes. Defense? Never. He was good at bobbing and weaving when he managed to, but when he got hit, he got hit. He was pretty sloppy when it came to blocking jabs and punches. His strategy was to go in for the kill. Period. Like I said, he was great for those 5 years using that formula, but how long did approach that last him? He was only 28 years old when he got knocked out by Buster Douglas. There's no excuse for that bro. Why should the loss of Cus D'amato and his rocky marriage play into his boxing skill? He was still a millionaire and was protected by Don King. Someone (Buster) who had nothing to lose decided to slug it out with him a la Mike and Mike lost...

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Tyson at his prime was unstoppable, he fought and annihilated anybody he faced in a five year period including a destruction of Berbick and SPinks.


Most of those 1-2-3 knockouts were against BUMS. I've been watching Tyson since the '84 Olympics and saw most, if not all, his 1 round knockouts and most of those clowns were never heard from again.

Did you ever see the match between Tyson and James "Bonecrusher" Smith? That was about the closest Tyson ever came to losing (before the Douglas fight.) It went the distance (12 rounds) and Tyson won by decision and unified the heavyweight championship. Even Tyson gave James Smith his props. It was the first time I had ever seen Tyson's face all puffy and what not. (Notice that fight is nowhere to be found on youtube amidst all the other Tyson highlights one could find.) Both Spinks and Berbick were admittedly frightened of Tyson, as they themselves later claimed, and at a psychological disadvantage from the start of the fight until they got knocked out a few minutes later. Spinks and Berbick came along and emerged at the right time. Just when Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, and Holmes, all of whom were real heavyweight contenders and fighters, were finished or on their way out. Had they been born earlier, Spinks and Berbick would have never achieved heavyweight prominence against the aforementioned list of Boxers. In fact, one of Buster Douglas wins prior to knocking out Tyson was against Trevor Berbick. So it's no really no big deal...

Quote:
If it wasn't for the passing of Cus D'amato his trainer/mentor/father figure right before the buster fight who knows what could have happened.


But the thing is bro.... Cus D'Amato passed away a few years before that fight took place. In fact, Cus never got around to seeing Mike Tyson win the Heavyweight Championship. He was already dead. So Mike was already winning and being successful with his street brawl approach a couple of years prior to facing Buster. Ali was another Cus D'amato disciple and he continued to have success after having parted ways with him. You don't have to have Cus D'amato there to win. He taught them how to fight and use their strengths. You can't lose that regardless if the guy who taught you is no longer in your corner or training you. Mike Tyson just reached a point where there were other more skilled boxers who were out there and just as hungry as he was when he was coming up. It's not like Mike was 42 years old when he started losing. He was still very much in the prime of his boxing career. Holyfield was a few years older than Mike and still beat him twice. That should tell you that a boxer needs to do more than just try to knock everyone out in the 1st round.

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Unfortunately for Mike, he had the wrong people around him which led to his demise.


Personally, I think the blame lies squarely on Mike Tyson. Nobody put a gun to his head regarding getting into fights with people in clubs or casinos or raping young women in hotel rooms or giving someone like Don King power of attorney over your $$$. Everyone makes him out to be this poor innocent street creature whow as duped by others and didn't have the smarts to know the difference, but he was a walking encyclopedia on Boxing history. Bert Sugar and Roy Firestone used to give him trivia questions on ESPN about which boxers did what and when and he'd answer every single one of them. So he wasn't no dummy. He wa sjsut anti-social and had a violent nature about him. He didnt' do anything different that other boxers like Larry Holmes and evebn Ali did. They all surrounded themselves with Don King, shady managers, trainers, other promoters, etc.

I honestly think that had he not gone to prison for those 4 years, Tyson would've been defeated by either one of the upcoming boxers who were emerging as real contenders. Lennox Lewis, Razor Rudduck, Riddick Bowe, Tyrell Biggs and much earlier by Holyfield.

Like I said, he was the best pound for pound for for those five years and I give him props for being the youngest champion in the history of boxing. But the reality was that the heavyweight division at that time, was nothing to write home about. There were no real serious contenders and Berbick, Spinks and Bonecrusher all got their belts by way of they being handed to them. They didn't defeat any unified champion to obtain it. Put Mike Tyson in his prime at 21 years old in 1970 and have him go up against Ali, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, and his goose would have been cooked.

Cus D'Amato said it himself. The G.O.A.T. was Ali. All Cus ever said about Tyson was that he has a chance to be the G.O.A.T. He didn't make the grade, so therefore, he's one of many good young fighters who just never reached maximum potential throughout their career. He is the Leon Spinks of this generation".

Here is my reply defending Tyson:

"That's probaby one of the worst Tyson critiques I have seen. Nothing of any substance, I have seen much much better. Tell dude to stop hating he way off and is basically 100% full of crap not even a boxing fan it's clear. Just another guy who wanna talk trash on Tyson without doing his homework.

First point.

Tyson got hit probably less than any other heavyweight in history during his reign until Douglas. Took so few big shots that most fans can remember any punch that actually looked like it hurt him off the top of their head. Defence was incredible for 220lb fighter all of the journalists/commentators mentioned his defence at the time. Cus training was focused around not getting hit at all, not slugging it out and trading. Sloppy when it comes to blocking jabs and punches? as opposed to what kicks? No boxing fans talk like that. Protected by Don King, huh more like exploited. He was 23 or 24 when he fought Douglas, not 28. Wrong. Marriage is life, and plays into anything. Boxing is a psychological game not a physical one. No excuse for what, losing a match? Everybody lost except Marciano, this isn't a video game it's a sport the outcome is never 100% safe.

Second point.

Defended title for 9 straight fights against most of biggest names in boxing at that time period. Bums? Maybe to start, what kind of pro fighter starts against the best? This guy a faker, watching since 84 olympics than why is he looking for highlights on youtube? Tyson never made it to the olympics by the way... nice try. Bonecrusher fight was so boring and long, Youtube is not a boxing library you know it's no conspiracy it's not there, lots of crappy fights aren't there. Bonecrusher held and ran away from Tyson all fight and was never close to beating him at all. Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Holmes were all past their prime in 1989. You beat who is in front of you, you can't take a time machine to fight greats from the past. Mike is top 10, nobody think he really #1 of all time. Buster got stopped by Tony Tucker who Mike handled fairly easy, whats this guys point you cannot judge fights like that by who opponents beat who. Making opponents afraid is not cheating, it's part of the game, an earned advantage.

Third point.

Ali was not trained by Cus, it was Angelo Dundee, another big fact that prove this guy knows nothing. Street brawl? Peek a boo style is farthest thing from street brawl, it is a classic boxing technique. Holyfield fight was not in Mike's prime, what this guy talking about is this about his prime or what? Should we judge Ali for losing to Berbick too? How about Foreman vs Morrison and Briggs?

Fourth.

Defeated by Biggs and Ruddock if he didn't go to jail??? He kicked those guys asses before jail jesus is this a joke? Tell him to stop looking on boxrec for names and actually watch fights. Mike would crush Norton (he got smashed by every big puncher he ever fought and Frazier would have no chance against swarmer like Mike), Foreman and Ali is highly debateable. but these guys is clearly top 5 of all time. For Mike to be in their catagory is saying enough. Knowing boxing history does not make you a good person, just because he knew some old fights didnt' mean he would be smart in life choices. Bert Sugar asking questions huh, sorry that never happened, he must just be repeating about what he heard on Sports Century or something.

Fifth.

Ali is not regarded as the G.O.A.T. by most knowledgable people, only wannabe fans. Joe Louis is. Tell this guy to check out some fights instead of watching youtube mixes and Beyond the Glory if he want to have a good argument about Tyson, he knows very little but is just trying to sound smart. Hatorade".

LOL at Biggs & Ruddock beating Mike.
Like all of Mikes early op not only did he beat them all,he also effectively finished their careers.How many fighters came back strong after Mike had finished with them?The Biggs mismatch was brutal.Mike actually said after the fight that he could've stopped him earlier but he wanted to punish him for what he said during the prefight biuldup.
The only reason noobs assume Tyson was just a brawler is because his offense was so good that it overshadowed his fine defensive skills.
You don't become undisputed world champ with 9 defenses without even getting a cut bruise or swelling unless your doing something very right.

LOL at Biggs & Ruddock beating Mike.
Like all of Mikes early op not only did he beat them all,he also effectively finished their careers.How many fighters came back strong after Mike had finished with them?The Biggs mismatch was brutal.Mike actually said after the fight that he could've stopped him earlier but he wanted to punish him for what he said during the prefight biuldup.
The only reason noobs assume Tyson was just a brawler is because his offense was so good that it overshadowed his fine defensive skills.
You don't become undisputed world champ with 9 defenses without even getting a cut bruise or swelling unless your doing something very right.

+1.
Alot of people don't know shit about mike. As far as skills wise, he was the best, but as far achievements, he could've done alot more.

+1.
Alot of people don't know shit about mike.

and ven does. good job

Vens done his Tyson homework
I am impressed...

Mike Tyson = boxings #1 p4p disapointment

jimmy that av pwns and sucks at the same time lol.

Mike Tyson = boxings #1 p4p disapointment

To bad Mike Tyson went with Don King, and left Kevin Rooney.

BluntObject50 [ADR];478362']jimmy that av pwns and sucks at the same time lol.

Jajajaja.Yeah good point.I love it and yet I hate it???????????

To bad Mike Tyson went with Don King, and left Kevin Rooney.

yea, I belive that made a huge difference to, his head movement didnt get slower... his head movement didnt exist
just walk into the big guy and let him hold you isnt gonna win many fights

btw Ali is #1 HW imo
and most boxing historians actually agree, the Joe Louis is #1 fad went out a few years ago

yea, I belive that made a huge difference to, his head movement didnt get slower... his head movement didnt exist
just walk into the big guy and let him hold you isnt gonna win many fights

btw Ali is #1 HW imo
and most boxing historians actually agree, the Joe Louis is #1 fad went out a few years ago

Tyson just lost desire as he got older, and when you don't have desire you have nothing.
Tyson just fought Lennox for the money, and he acted like an ass to get PPV buys, and ratings, He collected the paycheck, and got the hell out.
About the Ali thing, It's highly debateable.

Tyson just lost desire as he got older, and when you don't have desire you have nothing.
Tyson just fought Lennox for the money, and he acted like an ass to get PPV buys, and ratings, He collected the paycheck, and got the hell out.
About the Ali thing, It's highly debateable.

doesnt matter though, tyson is what he is and was what he was and thats the way it is ja!
never even proved he belonged in the top ten of all time
the defining moments of his career were Spinks, Douglas, Ruddock and Holyfield 2-2
thats why there not much love for Tyson when you got people saying he was the best ever because he looked good against nobodies, to tell the truth it gets on my nerves to
but also people underating Tyson gets on my nerves so really I blame Tyson

As far as skills wise, he was the best,.


I agree he was a lot more skilled than "Old school" boxing fans like to give him credit for, but he wasn't the best skill wise. He was a magnificent puncher and very defensively sound, but lets not go to hell with it.

I agree he was a lot more skilled than "Old school" boxing fans like to give him credit for, but he wasn't the best skill wise. He was a magnificent puncher and very defensively sound, but lets not go to hell with it.

I just like his style.

My theory has always been that the so called "old school" boxing fans PURPOSELY underrate Tyson, simply because being a huge Tyson fan has become synonymous with being a newbie who doesn't know shit about boxing. I think guys want to stay away from that stigma so they bash Tyson.

I'm a big Tyson fan. Tyson was a magnificent puncher, and we'll probably never see a guy who can punch like Tyson ever again. There were guys who hit harder, but no one had the combination of speed, power and precision that Tyson did. And with those kind of punching skills, he could have beaten anyone on any given night.

That being said, I think to rate Tyson in the top 10 is foolish, let alone #1. Ali SIMPLY HAS to be #1. I'm not a huge Ali fan, but no one in their right mind can argue this. For his accomplishments, he has to be #1. He came aroudn when Sonny Liston was the most feared guy in boxing, they thought he'd be champ for 100 years. He beat him twice (althought I still think the 2nd fight Sonny took a dive). Frazier, Norton, Quarry, Bob Foster, Shavers. People thought he was too old and were fearing for his life against Foreman, but he beat him. Ali is #1, no one can deny that.

I just like his style.

So do I, he probably has the most crowd-friendly style of any HW in history.

My top ten of HW's.
Ali
Louis
Holmes
Marcianno
Lewis
Tyson
Dempsey
Frazier
Foreman
"White Buffalo" Francois Botha

I wouldnt argue your top 5 because its... ok
but the 6 - 10 is pretty bad, Frazier above Foreman makes no sense at all and Im guesing you put Botha in there as a joke
id have Foreman at #3 or even #2, holyfield didnt even make the list and he crushed Tyson yet Mikey is there ofcourse, Dempsey seems amazingly overated when you actually watch footage of him imho, but I see why he is there (its most likely someones list from a boxing forum just with Tyson in there)
you obviously have only ever watched boxing through Tyson doco's dude

Putting Foreman at 2 or 3 is bad IMO. Foreman deserves to be in anyone's top 10 for his amazing career, but 2 or 3? Naaahh, that would mean he is placed above Louis and Holmes, which is more than I can allow.

My personal top 5 is this...

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Louis
4. Marciano
5. George Foreman


I know Holmes isn't exactly the most exciting fighter in the world, but he was fucking amazing. Whenever you get a chance try to catch any of his pre-Mike Spinks fights. The guy was just masterful, and IMO deserves to be ranked #2 or 3.

WTF.Botha ahead of Holyfield??????????
Frans Botha sucked ven.Seriously, he d be lucky to crack my top 50.

I'd have Tyson around 7 or 8.Mike got off to a stellar start in his career but unlike the greats he didn't have the grit to overcome adversity when things wern't going his way.
The reasoning that Mike was past his prime when losing to Holy doesn't make sense.He was only 30 which is considered a HWs prime,in fact it was Holy who was considered past it going into the fight.Not only that, the manner in which he lost revealed a major weakness,an inability to adapt & not get discouraged when losing a fight.
It was apparant that when Mike landed his shots on Holy and they didn't have the usual effect he became bewildered & when Holy fired back after taking Mikes best it only served to solidify Mikes confusion.Tyson was mentally beaten after 4 rds & by the 6th it was obvious that is was only a matter of time.
Frontrunners like Tyson a rarely considered all time greats by historians,true champions are the ones that not only possess great skills but also the character & intestinal fortitude to overcome situations & odds that they're not supposed to.

Putting Foreman at 2 or 3 is bad IMO. Foreman deserves to be in anyone's top 10 for his amazing career, but 2 or 3? Naaahh, that would mean he is placed above Louis and Holmes, which is more than I can allow.

My personal top 5 is this...

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Louis
4. Marciano
5. George Foreman


I know Holmes isn't exactly the most exciting fighter in the world, but he was fucking amazing. Whenever you get a chance try to catch any of his pre-Mike Spinks fights. The guy was just masterful, and IMO deserves to be ranked #2 or 3.

Although I wasn't big on him Lennox makes it above Marciano in my books.I'm also believe that Foremans size & power would be too much for Marciano.

Ali
Holmes
Louis
Foreman
Liston
Lewis
Holyfield
Marciano
Tyson
Frazier

Good points. I kinda avoided who I think would beat who (to be 100% honest, I would take a prime Holmes over a prime Ali) and went for achievments and how they handled the opposition in their eras, not simply who I think would whoop everyone. I'm with you though, I would pick a lot of guys to beat Marciano (including Mike Tyson).

Also, journeyman James Tillis gave Tyson a mountain of trouble in his prime, so it wasn't like he was unbeatable.

Good points. I kinda avoided who I think would beat who (to be 100% honest, I would take a prime Holmes over a prime Ali) and went for achievments and how they handled the opposition in their eras, not simply who I think would whoop everyone. I'm with you though, I would pick a lot of guys to beat Marciano (including Mike Tyson).

Also, journeyman James Tillis gave Tyson a mountain of trouble in his prime, so it wasn't like he was unbeatable.

Yeah I know what u mean.I really love Marciano,he was the real life Rocky,a fighter who couldn't be discouraged & the fact that a 185lber makes most respected historians top 10 HW list is,in itself,amazing.

I wouldnt argue your top 5 because its... ok
but the 6 - 10 is pretty bad, Frazier above Foreman makes no sense at all and Im guesing you put Botha in there as a joke
id have Foreman at #3 or even #2, holyfield didnt even make the list and he crushed Tyson yet Mikey is there ofcourse, Dempsey seems amazingly overated when you actually watch footage of him imho, but I see why he is there (its most likely someones list from a boxing forum just with Tyson in there)
you obviously have only ever watched boxing through Tyson doco's dude

I just been of fan of tyson since I was growing up, and know alot about him.
Holyfield beat an old washed up, out of prime tyson, and Holyfield is a dirty fighter, I hate him.

Holyfield beat an old washed up, out of prime tyson, and Holyfield is a dirty fighter, I hate him.


Haha but Holyfield was still 4 years older than Tyson...

But Holyfield is a dirty bastard, believe it or not I have sympathy for Mike's ear biting. If someone kept headbutting me and the ref didn't do anything about it, I might resort to similar tactics.

Nobody else has Johnson in their top ten?

Nobody else has Johnson in their top ten?


I would probably give him top 10 recognition. I'm not sure where exactly (not in my top 5), but probably along the 8-10 region.

Its really unfortunate that the footage we have available of him is so poor. About a year ago I became enthralled by his story and read/watched anything I could about him. He had one hell of a career and left one hell of a legacy.

Although I wasn't big on him Lennox makes it above Marciano in my books.I'm also believe that Foremans size & power would be too much for Marciano.

Ali
Holmes
Louis
Foreman
Liston
Lewis
Holyfield
Marciano
Tyson
Frazier


your list is ok but noway id rate Tyson above Frazier ever! Holyfield idk about either
Lennox Lewis deserves his place no doubt

I like Holmes, id rate him in my top 5 but I think id put Foreman above him
I doubt Holmes would have beat Ali in his prime either, Holmes was Ali's sparring partner and we know how Ali can adapt especially when he already knows what to expect

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7697/tyson175x131oe7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Tyson should've went down as the best boxer ever..Fucking tyson gets me pissed off..He had all the potential in the world.

shame he wasnt good enough

shame he wasnt good enough

How so???

How so???

do you even read these threads or you just here to troll?

do you even read these threads or you just here to troll?

I disagree with people saying he wasn't good enough..That's just idiotic.

I disagree with people saying he wasn't good enough..That's just idiotic.

if he was good enough why didnt he become the best ever? or even beat a top ten? he had chances but he wasnt good enough
Ven you have no idea what your on about, it doesnt even make sense


one eyed tyson fans live in there own little world

your list is ok but noway id rate Tyson above Frazier ever! Holyfield idk about either
Lennox Lewis deserves his place no doubt

I like Holmes, id rate him in my top 5 but I think id put Foreman above him
I doubt Holmes would have beat Ali in his prime either, Holmes was Ali's sparring partner and we know how Ali can adapt especially when he already knows what to expect

The Tyson or Frazier choice was a hard one.You have Mikes initial success of being the youngest undisputed HW champ with 9 dominating title defenses en route to cleaning out the division combined with the fact that he also drew a whole new audience to boxing & singlehandedly revived the sport.
Its fair to say that Tysons whole leagacy is based on that initial reign as champ because he didnt do a lot after that.Its hard to count KOing Bruce Seldon to regain a portion of the title as a real achievment,I'd rate his victories over Ruddock as the only significant wins after the Douglas loss that r worthy of mention.
Frazier on the other hand was a killer too.He won the title from Jimmy Ellis and had 4 defenses,2 of which were against overmatched op.
Fraziers shining moment was the 2nd defense against Ali.
Without taking anything away from that great victory its fair to note that the timing & circumstances of the fight all favoured Joe.The ring smarts & intimidation tactics that Ali later honed thru the 70's didnt exist when they 1st fought.Ali went into the fight overconfident & underprepared relying on his speed & legs to do what they always had done.Big mistake.
On his 5th defense Joe was smoked by Foreman inside 2 rds,then went on to lose rematches with Ali & got stopped again by Foreman in a return.
Joes legacy is centred around the Ali win & given the circumstances of the win & consequent losses in rematches I don't think its quite enough to rate him above Mike.
I also take into consideration that a IMO a prime Mike would blow a prime Frazier out of there inside a few rds.
Thats my take on it dude.
Unless someone can convince me otherwise thats the way I see it.

I rekon Mike wouldnt have lasted with Frazier, he was too brutal and even if he did get dropped would just keep getting back up until Mikes spirit was broken
and onece Mike's in trouble anything can happen
id pick Joe by DQ lol

Nobody else has Johnson in their top ten?

You know I thought about it but I honestly cant make a judgement on Johnson because it would only be based on 2nd hand stories and a few minutes of grainy out of sync footage.
Also I know little of how good his opposition was or was not.I know he won the title by toying with & beating up Tommy Burns.But Burns was what.... a 5 foot 8 180lber white man who never really stood a chance.He beat the once great Jeffries but Jim was 37 and long retired,he also had to lose 80lbs for the fight.

At 37 Johnson was himself stopped by the very forgettable Jess Willard.
I'm too unsure about Johnson,is it just legend or was he really that good?
I dont know.

I rekon Mike wouldnt have lasted with Frazier, he was too brutal and even if he did get dropped would just keep getting back up until Mikes spirit was broken
and onece Mike's in trouble anything can happen
id pick Joe by DQ lol


LOL at Mikes 1 & only backup strategy if the original game plan isn't going right.... panic & then chew the closest ear off or break his arm in a clinch.

I gotta say that I rank Frazier far above Tyson (Frazier is in my top 10, Tyson is not). Frazier was a beast and only lost to two people: Muhammad Ali and George Foreman, both of who are in my top 5 of all time. Foreman was just a bad matchup for Frazier and Ali was simply the best, and for Frazier to beat Ali when he was still in his prime (Ali was like 28 or 29 at the time) says a shit load about Joe Frazier.

Frazier beating guys like Bonavena, Eddie Machen, Buster Mathis, Ellis, and stopping Quarry and CHuvalo (even if it was on cuts) impresses me a hell of a lot more than Tyson's brutal destruction of subpar journeymen. Joe's only losses came to two of the greatest HW's the world has ever seen, Mike in his prime was given a world of trouble by journeyman Quick Tillis and iced by Buster Douglas. And when both were 30, Joe Frazier was beating guys like Ellis and Quarry, and Tyson was getting destroyed by an aging Evander Holyfield.