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Blunt Object
04-16-2007, 10:38 PM
BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a Virginia Tech dorm and then, two hours later, shot up a classroom across campus Monday, killing 32 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history. The gunman committed suicide, bringing the death toll to 33.


Students complained that there were no public-address announcements or other warnings on campus after the first burst of gunfire. They said the first word they received from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage — around the time the gunman struck again.

Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

"We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur," he said.

He defended the university's handling of the tragedy, saying: "We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it."

Investigators offered no motive for the attack. The gunman's name was not immediately released, and it was not known if he was a student.

The shootings spread panic and confusion on campus. Witnesses reporting students jumping out the windows of a classroom building to escape the gunfire. SWAT team members with helmets, flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed over the campus. Students and faculty members carried out some of the wounded themselves, without waiting for ambulances to arrive.

The massacre took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing at least two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building about a half-mile away, authorities said.

Two people were killed in a dormitory room, and 31 others were killed in the engineering building, including the gunman, police said.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," Steger said. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

Steger said the university decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means of notifying members of the university, but with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out. He said that before the e-mail went out, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms to notify them and sent people to knock on doors to spread the word.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not say how many weapons the gunman carried. But a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition.

Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dorm when they got word of gunfire at the classroom building.

Some students bitterly questioned why the gunman was able to strike a second time.

"What happened today this was ridiculous," student Jason Piatt told CNN. "While they send out that e-mail, 20 more people got killed."

Students and Laura Wedin, a student programs manager at Virginia Tech, said the first notification they got of the shootings came in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m., more than two hours after the first shooting.

The e-mail had few details. It said: "A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating." The message warned students to be cautious and contact police about anything suspicious.

Student Maurice Hiller said he went to a 9 a.m. class two buildings away from the engineering building, and no warnings were coming over the outdoor public address system on campus at the time.

Everett Good, junior, said of the lack of warning: "I'm trying to figure that out. Someone's head is definitely going to roll over that."

"We were kept in the dark a lot about exactly what was going on," said Andrew Capers Thompson, a 22-year-old graduate student from Walhalla, S.C.

At least 26 people were being treated at three area hospitals for gunshot wounds and other injuries, authorities said. Their exact conditions were not disclosed, but at least one was sent to a trauma center and six were in surgery, authorities said.

Up until Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

The massacre Monday took place almost eight years to the day after the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.

Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police.

Founded in 1872, Virginia Tech is nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of southwestern Virginia, about 160 miles west of Richmond. With more than 25,000 full-time students, it has the state's largest full-time student population. The school is best known for its engineering school and its powerhouse Hokies football team.

The rampage took place on a brisk spring day, with snow flurries swirling around the campus. The campus is centered around the Drill Field, a grassy field where military cadets — who now represent a fraction of the student body — once practiced. The dorm and the classroom building are on opposites sides of the Drill Field.

A gasp could be heard at a campus news conference early in the day when the police chief announced that at least 20 people had been killed. Previously, only one person was thought to have been killed.

A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified by the rampage and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia.

"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed, and classes were canceled through Tuesday. The university set up a meeting place for families to reunite with their children. It also made counselors available and planned an assembly for Tuesday at the basketball arena.

After the shooting began, students were told to stay inside away from the windows.

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.

Police said there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks by authorities but said they have not determined a link to the shootings.

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

Last August, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

Evil
04-16-2007, 10:42 PM
They still don't know if the two shootings are related or not...

TBA
04-16-2007, 11:04 PM
Terrible story all around.

If more students had been armed the death toll might have been much less in my opinion.

We need to get back some of the toughness we had in the old days where men protected their friends and family. Many gun laws make that difficult now in my opinion.

But there are 38 police officers on paper there on campus. I wonder why he was able to kill so many people.

hotnewton
04-16-2007, 11:27 PM
Beat me to it...

Tragic... I wonder what set this one off???

I wonder if the first attack was to get all the law enforcement personel to one side of the campus so he could take care of business on the other side?

In situations like this there are far too many questions that will be left unanswered... terrible situation all around.

I think it's safe to say that everybody on the shoes has the victims and their families in mind, I know I do.

Beanflicker
04-16-2007, 11:51 PM
We need to get back some of the toughness we had in the old days where men protected their friends and family. Many gun laws make that difficult now in my opinion.
.

I disagree.

I dont want everyone walking around carrying a gun. You'll have tons of people using them when they aren't necessary because chances are in the run of your lifetime you're going to lose your temper and be angry at someone. Fuck I'm a bouncer at a club and I see arguments and tempers flare every night. Now if all these motherfuckers are carrying guns you better believe that their going to be pulled out immediately.

But with that aside these incidents really get me down. Its depressing to think of all these young lives, these capable minds and bodies being destroyed in an instant because some fucko is a loser and wants to make a name for himself. We had some fucking loner indian shoot up a school here in Canada not too long ago. He killed a beautiful girl my age (19-20). Its just fucking retarded.

Elduderino
04-17-2007, 12:06 AM
Wow how did i miss this news,... Intense

Elduderino
04-17-2007, 12:11 AM
They still don't know if the two shootings are related or not...

Massacre probe tries to ID killer (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html)

32 killed, 29 injured by lone gunman at Virginia Tech
All I can tell you is he's a male, says police chief
University officials say 33 dead, including gunman
Four hospitals report 29 wounded
Blood soaked victims ran, carried from buildingshttp://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/newt1.1813.vt.ap.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/story.police.ap.jpghttp://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/story.vatech.01.ap.jpg

(Watch a student describe living through a "college Columbine" (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:cnnVideo%28%27play%27,%27/video/us/2007/04/16/mos.students.reax.wdbj%27,%272009/04/15%27%29;) http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.5/main/icon_video.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:cnnVideo%28%27play%27,%27/video/us/2007/04/16/mos.students.reax.wdbj%27,%272009/04/15%27%29;))

Before Monday, the deadliest school shootings came in 1966 and 1999.
In the former, Charles Joseph Whitman, a 25-year-old ex-Marine, killed 13 people on the University of Texas campus. He was killed by police.
In 1999, 17-year-old Dylan Klebold and 18-year-old Eric Harris -- armed with guns and pipe bombs -- killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado.

CHE
04-17-2007, 12:18 AM
this guy, by himself, dominated the marine and those 2 douchebag emo kids from columbine, combined.

Elduderino
04-17-2007, 12:29 AM
Must watch !!! fucking shit

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1176758727/Virginia_Tech_Tragedy_Victim_Describes_the_Shooter

TBA
04-17-2007, 12:43 AM
Word is that he killed his girlfriend and another guy at the dorms then went to look for her new guy across campus and went on a shooting rampage.

Not everytthiong is confirmed yet though.

TBA
04-17-2007, 12:47 AM
I hear you Beanflicker but I always feel safer with friends that are all packing then when nobody I'm with is armed. If this guy tried that at my high school on the wrong day there would have been return fire.

I like being in Wyoming or other states when everyone is armed. Everyone is soo much more polite and respectful.

Edit- Of course I would rather the noncriminals that have passed gun safety courses and tests be armed than everybody but the criminals always arm themselves anyway so I'd like the ratio to be better.

ninjashoes
04-17-2007, 02:19 AM
I agree if just one of those student had their own gun and was trained to use it then so many lives would have been saved.

We can't count on the police always being able to protect us, we should be able to have guns even though we will see more hotheads killing people in incidents of road rage.

I'm going to get my concealed weapons permit as soon as I buy my first handgun. I bought a Shotgun last year because my house isnt set up for an alarm system, you have know idea how safer I feel having a gun within arms reach. I have a methlab nextdoor to me btw...

hotnewton
04-17-2007, 03:59 AM
I disagree.

I dont want everyone walking around carrying a gun. You'll have tons of people using them when they aren't necessary because chances are in the run of your lifetime you're going to lose your temper and be angry at someone. Fuck I'm a bouncer at a club and I see arguments and tempers flare every night. Now if all these motherfuckers are carrying guns you better believe that their going to be pulled out immediately.

But with that aside these incidents really get me down. Its depressing to think of all these young lives, these capable minds and bodies being destroyed in an instant because some fucko is a loser and wants to make a name for himself. We had some fucking loner indian shoot up a school here in Canada not too long ago. He killed a beautiful girl my age (19-20). Its just fucking retarded.

I agree... i don't want everybody carrying a gun, this isn't the wild west

P.S. You're Canadian??

Evil
04-17-2007, 04:25 AM
Everyone thats 21 years old and knows proper gun safety should carry a gun.

Blunt Object
04-17-2007, 04:25 AM
Everyone thats 21 years old and knows proper gun safety should carry a gun.

:no:

Evil
04-17-2007, 04:28 AM
BluntObject50 [ADR];465787']:no:

Give me one good reason why not...

Blunt Object
04-17-2007, 04:36 AM
you said everyone that's over 21 and knows proper gun safety should carry a gun. what do you mean by proper gun safety??

Sloth
04-17-2007, 05:43 AM
Wow! I heard a little about this earlier today , this is crazy! Thanks for posting the phone interview with one of the victims!

SolitaryIndividual
04-17-2007, 07:44 AM
I agree if just one of those student had their own gun and was trained to use it then so many lives would have been saved.

We can't count on the police always being able to protect us, we should be able to have guns even though we will see more hotheads killing people in incidents of road rage.

I'm going to get my concealed weapons permit as soon as I buy my first handgun. I bought a Shotgun last year because my house isnt set up for an alarm system, you have know idea how safer I feel having a gun within arms reach. I have a methlab nextdoor to me btw...

yeah thats the first thing that went through my mind ... if somebody would have had a gun, maybe 25 lives could have been saved ... imagine the look on his face when some guy sitting at his desk in the middle of the class room pulls a 1911 out of his back pack and lights that worthless fucker up ... guns on a college campus is a difficult issue to approach because of the negatives that could go along with it, but i agree with all the others that want to arm themselves. cops cant be everywhere every moment a crime happens in a split second, the reality is, the response time can be incredibly slow allowing a huge number of people to be killed before any help arrives. i live in a state that does not allow conceal and carry, but there have been many times when my dad has packed his beretta, like when he has to go into east st. louis for buisness, or when my family and i go on vacation. he is the most level headed man i've ever known, and his only intent while carrying it is to protect himself and his family.

Soul Position
04-17-2007, 08:48 AM
This can turn into a discussion of proper armament of the citizenry. It's a long-winded discussion. I believe both cases have very strong reasons for their pertinence but the essence in its most basic sense is ethics. We're not an ethical society globally. This argument of both sides will never end. And when it does, we're living in tyranny. So the ruckus is the search for a middle ground.

HarshReality
04-17-2007, 11:38 AM
this is what happens when you sell guns to make a buck.. will be interesting to hear the circumstances as to why it happend..

second time in a year at that school, id say they're doing something wrong lol.

Beanflicker
04-17-2007, 12:18 PM
I agree... i don't want everybody carrying a gun, this isn't the wild west

P.S. You're Canadian??

Yep I'm Canadian... St. Johns, Newfoundland representin'

chop
04-17-2007, 02:29 PM
Americans are such pussies, always reaching for a fucking weapon

HarshReality
04-17-2007, 02:59 PM
the guy was chinese.. anybody have a timeline of events?? supposedly it was 2hrs between the first and second murders.. curious as to why the time delay if this was a "shooting spree"??

maybe he was looking for jack bauer?? lol

Bruce Lee
04-17-2007, 03:06 PM
Well, one Korean guy wacked 32 people, wounded another 22 and killed himself in the process.

What Asian country is G.W. Bush going to invade and occupy to protect the rest of us Americans from such threats? I say probably Mexico...

Bets?

Bruce Lee
04-17-2007, 03:10 PM
Terrible story all around.

If more students had been armed the death toll might have been much less in my opinion.
.


Or, if nobody had a gun then there would be no death toll...

Guns + People = lots of death

Guns - People = More MMA fighters

DieOff
04-17-2007, 03:37 PM
Americans are such pussies, always reaching for a fucking weapon

So FIGHT the law breaking guy with the gun?

VicDienekes
04-17-2007, 08:35 PM
2006 VT shooting in the "gun-free zone"...54 direct victims.

Hours after the first shooting police bother to attempt apprehending the shooter. 32 dead, 22 wounded.

2002 law school shooting...3 direct victims.

Wackjob stopped by 2 law students carrying licensed firearms.

Elduderino
04-17-2007, 08:48 PM
BLACKSBURG, Va. (Crime Library) — Authorities have now identified the man responsible for the worst massacre in U.S. history as a 23-year-old South Korean student named Cho Seung-Hui, whose residence was in the northern Virginia suburb of Centreville, VA. On campus Cho lived in Harper Hall. Cho was scehduled to graduate this year. Positive identification of the killer was difficult because he did not have any identification on him and his face was seriously disfigured by his self-inflicted gunshot wounds.
<!--- image ---><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="200"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/news/original/0407/va_tech/shooter3_200.jpg</td></tr><tr><td class="caption">Cho Seung-Hui</td></tr></tbody></table>
Cho apparently was a loner with very few friends. According to the Chicago Tribune, Cho left a very troublesome note in his dorm room that provides a few clues to his disturbed state of mind. The note, reported by the Tribune, rails about "rich kids" on the campus, "debauchery" and "deceit" by "charlatans." He signed the note "Ismail Ax" in red ink.
The Washington Post reported that "affidavit for a search warrant filed this morning in Montgomery County, VA., circuit court said police found a "bomb threat note . . . directed at engineering school department buildings" near the bodies of the shooter and some victims..... The affidavit said that investigators were searching Cho's room in Harper Hall."
Three weeks earlier written bomb threats were found that targetted the engineering building. A bomb threat note was reportedly found at the scene of the shooting tragedy.
Some students told Fox News that when they would greet Cho, he would ignore them and not return the greeting. Reportedly, Cho was suffering from depression and was prescribed medication for that

Unconfirmed reports are also surfacing about Cho setting fires in campus buildings and stalking women. It is possible that the woman murdered in the early morning dormitory shooting may have been the target of his advances.Authorities will be undertaking a psychological autopsy (http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/psych_autopsy/index.html) to get a better understanding of Cho's state of mind and motivations.
Ballistics indicated that one weapon was used in both shooting attacks. There is no evidence at the time that Cho had an accomplice.

<!--- image ---><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="200"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/news/original/0407/va_tech/virginia-tech200.jpg</td></tr><tr><td class="caption">Virginia Tech</td></tr></tbody></table>
<!--- end image --->
It is not currently understood how Cho was able to acquire the weapons that he used to perpetrate this terrible massacre. A receipt for one firearm indicates that he purchased it in March. Reportedly, serial numbers were filed off the firearms used in the massacre. In his backpack, Cho had chains that he used to secure the doors of the classrooms so that his victims could not escape.
Cho entered the United States from South Korea with his parents when he was a boy, eventually settling in the suburban community of Centreville. The only record of any legal infractions before yesterday was a speeding ticket in Montgomery County, MD. in March of 2007. He had a green card and was a permanent resident alien. Cho had a sister who reportedly graduated from Princeton University. Cho's parents run a dry cleaning business in Northern Virginia.




http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/story.vt14.tues.ap.jpg

<!--endclickprintinclude--><!--startclickprintinclude-->******** language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">var clickExpire = "-1";*********> <!---->Story Highlights

• NEW: "Macabre" writings surface; Cho caused concern among teachers previously
• Police ID shooter as 23-year-old resident alien, English major
• Police say one of the guns recovered was used in both shooting incidents
• Officials: 33 dead, including gunman, in Norris Hall and dormitory shootings


BLACKSBURG, Virginia (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:CNN_openPopup%28%27/interactive/maps/us/map.blacksburg.virginia/frameset.exclude.html%27,%27620x430%27,%27toolbar= no,location=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no ,scrollbars=no,resizable=no,width=620,height=430%2 7%29;) (CNN) -- The 23-year-old English major accused of exacting a bloody rampage at Virginia Tech authored two plays so "twisted" that his classmates suspected he might be a school shooter before they knew for sure, a student said.Ian McFarland, who said he had class with suspected shooter Cho Seung-hui, called the plays "very graphic" and "extremely disturbing."McFarland is an employee of America Online, which has provided the writings to CNN."It was like something out of a nightmare," McFarland wrote in a blog. "The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of. "Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter."A university official also said that Cho scribed writings so "disturbing" they were sent to administrators, a university official said Tuesday.

The official did not provide details about the writings, which first came to the attention of faculty in the English department, but said they were passed on to the department chairwoman and university administrators.Cho left a long and vitriolic note in his dorm room, law enforcement sources told ABC News. It contained an explanation of his actions and states, "You caused me to do this," ABC News reported.It also railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus, according to the Chicago Tribune.
University officials said they were still trying to determine whether Cho was responsible for a shooting earlier Monday that left two dead at a dormitory.However, Flinchum said ballistics tests show that one of the two guns recovered at Norris Hall was used at Norris and at the dorm, both located on the 26,000-student campus.

Authorities are still investigating whether Cho had any accomplices in planning or executing Monday's rampage, Col. Steven Flaherty of the Virginia State Police said.
"It certainly is reasonable for us to assume that Cho was the shooter in both places, but we don't have the evidence to take us there at this particular point in time," Flaherty said.
Cho, a 23-year-old South Korean and resident alien, was an English major who lived at the university's Harper Hall, Flinchum said. (Shooter's profile (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/cho.profile/index.html)) "He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," said Larry Hincker, associate vice president for university relations. Cho came to the United States in 1992, through Detroit, Michigan, a department of Homeland Security official said. He had lawful permanent residence, via his parents, and renewed his green card in October 2003, the official said.
His residence was listed as Centreville, Virginia, a suburb of Washington, D.C.
The university and police are still in the process of releasing the names of those killed in Monday's shootings. "What went on during that incident certainly caused tremendous chaos and panic in Norris Hall," Flaherty said, describing how victims were found in four classrooms and in the stairwell of the school's engineering science and mechanics building.

As questions continued to arise about how police reacted to the first shooting at the dorm,university President CharlesSteger on Tuesday defended the response, saying police believed it to be "a domestic fight, perhaps a murder-suicide" that was contained to one dorm room. Police cordoned off the 895-student West Ambler Johnston dorm and all residents were told about the shooting as police looked for witnesses, Steger said.
Authorities were still investigating what they believed was an "isolated incident" when the slaughter occurred at Norris Hall. "I don't think anyone could have predicted that another event was going to take place two hours later," Steger said, adding that it would've been difficult to warn every student because most were off campus at the time. Steger told reporters Monday that when police responded to Norris Hall they found the front doors chained shut. The gunfire had stopped by the time they reached the second floor, he said.
The gunman killed 31 people, including himself, and wounded 15 in Norris Hall classrooms.

Student heard clip drop to ground
Zach Petkewicz was in class when the shooting at Norris began and "everyone went into a frenzy, a panic." Petkewicz was hiding behind a podium when he realized there was nothing preventing the shooter from entering the classroom and barked to his classmates, "We need to barricade this door." Two students joined him in throwing tables against the door and wedging their weight behind them, just as the gunman cracked open the door.
When the students slammed the door in his face, "he backed up and shot twice into the middle of the door thinking we were up against it," Petkewicz said. "I was up against the side holding this desk up against there and I just heard his clip drop to the ground and he reloaded, and I thought he was coming back for a second round, to try and get his way in there," he said. "He didn't say a word, and he just turned and kept firing down the hall and didn't try to get back in." As of midday Tuesday, officials were still releasing the names of those killed, which include a marching band member from Georgia and an Israeli Holocaust survivor who headed the engineering and science department. Classes have been canceled for the rest of the week, and Norris Hall will be closed for the remainder of the semester, Steger said. Student Emily Alderman said students were sending out instant messages urging each other to wear their Virginia Tech Hokie gear in a sign of unity.There have been two bomb threats at the university this month, the latest of which came Friday. Flinchum said Tuesday they were unrelated to the shootings. Last August, the first day of class was cut short at Virginia Tech by a manhunt for an escaped prisoner accused of killing a Blacksburg hospital security guard and a sheriff's deputy.Before Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in the United States occurred in 1991, when George Hennard drove a pickup truck into a Killeen, Texas, cafeteria and fatally shot 23 people, before shooting and killing himself.


ER doctor: never seen 'anything like this before'

<!--endclickprintinclude--><!--startclickprintinclude-->******** language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">var clickExpire = "*********>• ER doctor: "The injuries were just amazing"
• The victims he saw "didn't have less than three bullet wounds"
• Seventeen of the wounded remained hospitalized Tuesday
<!--startclickprintexclude-->
BLACKSBURG, Virginia (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:CNN_openPopup%28%27/interactive/maps/us/map.blacksburg.virginia/frameset.exclude.html%27,%27620x430%27,%27toolbar= no,location=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no ,scrollbars=no,resizable=no,width=620,height=430%2 7%29;) (CNN) -- It was more like a scene from an episode of "ER" than one from a real-life hospital in a small college town. "Nobody had ever seen anything like this before," CEO for Montgomery Regional Hospital Scott Hill said. "You can never adequately prepare for this level of violence."
On a day where too many died on the scene, many more were taken, injured and bleeding to the hospital. It was a process hindered by the weather. High winds prevented the use of helicopters to move patients, Hill said.
Dr. Joseph Cacioppo, an emergency room doctor at Montgomery, indicated he was stunned when victims began pouring in. "The injuries were just amazing. This man was brutal. There wasn't a shooting victim that didn't have less than three bullet wounds in him," Cacioppo said of the victims he saw.
Not all of the injuries were life threatening. "Even, again, the less serious injuries, we saw one patient that had a bullet wound to the wrist, one to the elbow and one to the thigh. We had another one with a bullet wound to the abdomen, one to the chest and one to the head," Cacioppo said.
Seventeen of the wounded remained hospitalized Tuesday, and at least one of those patients was to be released Tuesday, Hill said. All of the nine patients at Montgomery, including three who had been critical, were now in stable condition, he said.
Montgomery in Blacksburg received a total of 19 patients, Hill said.
In addition, three patients remained at Lewis-Gale Medical Center in Salem, two remained in critical condition at Roanoke Memorial Hospital and three were in stable condition at New River Valley Medical Center in Blacksburg, hospital officials said.
Seven patients had been released from hospitals by Tuesday, Hill said.

Evil
04-17-2007, 10:32 PM
BluntObject50 [ADR];465810']you said everyone that's over 21 and knows proper gun safety should carry a gun. what do you mean by proper gun safety??


Anyone that has experience hunting, that has been to a shooting range more than a few times or anyone that was in the military. I know its not possible for only these kinds of people to have guns there will always be criminals with guns around, thats why we need good citizens that know how to properly carry a gun around also. If it wasn't against the law for students at VT to carry a gun maby someone could have saved alot of lives.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 01:24 AM
Better to have a gun and not have to use it then need a gun and not have one.

I like the idea of female family members having the option of carrying a gun to protect themselves from rape.

I like the idea of me being able to have a gun if the rare situation that I will need it does occur.

Outlawing guns does not keep them out of criminal hands.

People who think they can fight someone who has a weapon with MMA are delusional. People who think being trained in martial arts gaurantees you will always be stronger than your opponent or opponents are delusional.

People who think the world is a place where you never need a gun are delusional. There are bad people out there and some deserve to be shot.

I agree with Soul Position that there needs to be balance, automatic weapons should not be legal, the same applies with insane shit like grenade launchers.

Handguns, rifles and shotguns should all be legal to own and carry.

Beanflicker
04-18-2007, 03:22 AM
Solving crime problems by giving people guns is like solving the weed problem in your garden with napalm. My dad is a gun nut (he owned a gun shop/shooting range a long time ago, I have fond childhood memories of firing guns there) and we butt heads on this issue all the time.

BTW they posted 2 "plays" this Korean fucker wrote on the internet. Anyone read them yet? If not, READ THEM. One is called "Mr Brownstone" and the other is "Jack McBeef" or something like that. This guy was a FUCKING RETARD.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 03:43 AM
Solving crime problems by giving people guns is like solving the weed problem in your garden with napalm. My dad is a gun nut (he owned a gun shop/shooting range a long time ago, I have fond childhood memories of firing guns there) and we butt heads on this issue all the time.

BTW they posted 2 "plays" this Korean fucker wrote on the internet. Anyone read them yet? If not, READ THEM. One is called "Mr Brownstone" and the other is "Jack McBeef" or something like that. This guy was a FUCKING RETARD.

Laws that allow citizens to carry guns arent designed to solve crime problems they are designed to allow the individual to have the freedoms necissary to protect themselves when police arent around to save the day.

Answer me this:

Should a woman have the right to carry a gun to protect herself from rape?

Should she be denied the best way of defending herself from attackers simply because some people believe removing guns will reduce the number of gun related homocides?

Please don't bring up training in martial arts to defend against rape because you really can't expect a 90lb 45 year old woman to be able to defend herself from a 250lb attacker just because she has a year of bjj training.

The virgina shooter was using a simple 9mm, these are almost as easy to get as a bag of weed off the streets. Saying people can have guns in their home but not carry them doesent keep a kid from taking his dads gun to school.

All a kid needs to shoot up a school is a hunting rifle with the right type of clip and or a shotgun. He could easily take this to school. Shotguns can be modified to fit in a backpack.

Blunt Object
04-18-2007, 03:53 AM
Anyone that has experience hunting, that has been to a shooting range more than a few times or anyone that was in the military. I know its not possible for only these kinds of people to have guns there will always be criminals with guns around, thats why we need good citizens that know how to properly carry a gun around also. If it wasn't against the law for students at VT to carry a gun maby someone could have saved alot of lives.

this may be true but i think the problem lies with the university. i don't think any school wants students walking around with guns no matter the situation. i may be wrong.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 04:02 AM
thats why school are perfect to shoot up, you know everyone will be trapped and noone will be able to shoot back

here is WA state someone decided to shoot up the tacoma mall, a guy who worked at a store pulled out his handgun, he pointed it at the dude who was shooting but he saw the guy was young and didnt shoot him, if he woulda shot him he could have saved some lives

TBA
04-18-2007, 04:03 AM
Long TBA rant. Don't read if you don't want to see me vent just skip to the last sentence way below.

I live in the L.A. area and have many co-workers with bullethole scars. Once I was at lunch with some co-workers and I was the only guy without bullethole scars. They were all shot by criminals illegally carrying illegally bought guns. Most criminals have easy access to carry guns here and most good citizens don't because of the strict CA gun laws. I would rather have laws with more common sense. I sometimes feel like the only guy not packing when I walk down a rough street. And the consequences if I decide to carry (on my body) is years in jail.

I want more good guys armed and less criminals. Simple as that.

TBA
04-18-2007, 04:07 AM
Homeland Security BS has made my work less safe. We now have to leave our weapons in the car. If a guy wants to pick us off like ducks he now can with no return fire for about 10 minutes.

Just like that school.

CHE
04-18-2007, 04:14 AM
No identification was found on Cho's body, police said. He apparently shot himself in the head after the killings; part of his face was missing when his body was found.

damn, i need this pic for a new av!



NEways, what a bitch, shooting yerself? at least take a few cops with u.

like MC eight said. "Go out like a str8 up menace"

from other less viewed thread

Beanflicker
04-18-2007, 04:19 AM
Ninja I think it's easy to bring up the ideal situations like when a woman is walking down a dark alley way, some creep tries to rape her, she hauls out a gun to defend herself and everyone lives happily ever after. That situation is fine with me. HOWEVER any dude here knows that women can get intimidated very easily, so what happens when certain girls start pulling guns out on "creepy" guys for hitting on them, or in road rage incidents, ect.

The sad fact of life is that crime will happen. People will get murdered, robbed, raped, ect. Its a sick world. But if you want to solve that by giving people guns, I say that you're going to end up causing much more problems than you are preventing.

As far as I know, non-lethal weapons such as pepper spray or tazers work very well for women to defend themselves.

Beanflicker
04-18-2007, 04:23 AM
I mean look at all the wrongful death shootings that are done by cops; guys who have gone through years of hard training for these situations. Imagine the wrongful death shooting levels that will appear when you have random joe's trying to be Dirty Harry whenever trouble arises.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 05:45 AM
Ninja I think it's easy to bring up the ideal situations like when a woman is walking down a dark alley way, some creep tries to rape her, she hauls out a gun to defend herself and everyone lives happily ever after. That situation is fine with me. HOWEVER any dude here knows that women can get intimidated very easily, so what happens when certain girls start pulling guns out on "creepy" guys for hitting on them, or in road rage incidents, ect.

Yes its an ideal situation but a reality nonetheless, alot of women are raped. Nothing worng with using my strongest arguments first especially when its my personal number one reason for being pro handgun.

Women being intimidated easily does not change the fact that a handgun is her best weapon of defense against rape. There is no denying or sidestepping this fact. Its unreasonable to say a woman cannot carry a gun to defend herself against rape because you dont trust a gun in her hands. You have no right to make that judement about an entire sex.


The sad fact of life is that crime will happen. People will get murdered, robbed, raped, ect. Its a sick world. But if you want to solve that by giving people guns, I say that you're going to end up causing much more problems than you are preventing.

People already have guns, what are you going to say? People can't hunt or own rifles?

Rifles kill people far better than handguns because they are more accurate and powerful. Shotguns can take out whole groups of people.

Make all guns illegal and the average price of a single firearm skyrockets and we see drug dealers expanding into large scale gun importers. Its already happened in some parts of the world.

If you want a law that says people can't carry handguns they will simply do it anyway especially if they are career criminals or psycho's.



As far as I know, non-lethal weapons such as pepper spray or tazers work very well for women to defend themselves.

If someone was trying to rape you what would you rather have?

pepper spray or a gun?

Pepper spray is nothing more than an irritant that doesent work unless you hit the eyes, often you end up catching spray your own eyes, I have seen guys take 3 cans of pepper spray without stopping, I can show you videos off youtube. Pepper spray is not capable of stopping anyone from doing anything really. Its a great irritant for crowd control

pepper spray is good on burritos

Tazers either require close direct contact with your assailant, this takes away the ability for a woman to defend herself from a distance and requires her to make contact with an area of the assailant where his clothes arent too thick.

Theres another kind of tazer that fires once and if you miss your screwed, the darts can also be pulled out

Is anything the best non lethal weapon would be a tranqualizer gun.

Atticus
04-18-2007, 09:12 AM
I agree with Beanflicker on this one, on paper, yes, everyone having a gun does look good, but it's not that simple. If someone really wanted to rape a woman a gun wouldn't stop him. I've talked to a friend of mine who was raped before and she had pepper spray in her purse, but she was so fucking scared that her body froze up and she couldn't even reach for it, what the fuck good is a gun if the attacker neutralizes the woman to the point where she can't even reach for her weapon?

I don't care if it is the best kind of defence, guns are illegal in most places for a reason, they're lethal. I've watched a fight where one guy pulled out a knife and stabbed the other guy then almost everyone watching the fight pulled out a knife but fortunately no one advanced on eachother and they all ran away. Imagine if those were guns and it turned into a shootout.

Now maybe I don't understand it because I live in a safe town, but like Beanflicker said, it's a sick world, shit like this never gets avoided and will happen, but everyone having guns could be just as bad, imagine how many pointless killings would happen over heated arguments, drunk people being reckless, or misconceptions. That shit happens already with the few people who happen to have a gun.

Edit: Sorry you guys got caught in my rant, but that's just how I feel about guns, I have no problems with people having guns in their homes for their own protection. And Ninja does bring up strong arguments for being pro handguns.

Chickenjorge
04-18-2007, 09:42 AM
Yes its an ideal situation but a reality nonetheless, alot of women are raped. Nothing worng with using my strongest arguments first especially when its my personal number one reason for being pro handgun.

Women being intimidated easily does not change the fact that a handgun is her best weapon of defense against rape. There is no denying or sidestepping this fact. Its unreasonable to say a woman cannot carry a gun to defend herself against rape because you dont trust a gun in her hands. You have no right to make that judement about an entire sex.



People already have guns, what are you going to say? People can't hunt or own rifles?

Rifles kill people far better than handguns because they are more accurate and powerful. Shotguns can take out whole groups of people.

Make all guns illegal and the average price of a single firearm skyrockets and we see drug dealers expanding into large scale gun importers. Its already happened in some parts of the world.

If you want a law that says people can't carry handguns they will simply do it anyway especially if they are career criminals or psycho's.




If someone was trying to rape you what would you rather have?

pepper spray or a gun?

Pepper spray is nothing more than an irritant that doesent work unless you hit the eyes, often you end up catching spray your own eyes, I have seen guys take 3 cans of pepper spray without stopping, I can show you videos off youtube. Pepper spray is not capable of stopping anyone from doing anything really. Its a great irritant for crowd control

pepper spray is good on burritos

Tazers either require close direct contact with your assailant, this takes away the ability for a woman to defend herself from a distance and requires her to make contact with an area of the assailant where his clothes arent too thick.

Theres another kind of tazer that fires once and if you miss your screwed, the darts can also be pulled out

Is anything the best non lethal weapon would be a tranqualizer gun.

this might be the only or one of the only few times that i will disagree with you. but i really dont agree. you're right about the price of guns going up and all that, but...not everyone will have guns so that's pretty irrelevant.

girls getting raped....i agree with the last 2 posts. pepper spray should work fine. or a taser. and if she had a gun, the gun could easily be taken away and she could be killed herself.

or if the girl had a gun, well....the rapist might have one as well, the only difference would be that she would probably be scared to use it, and he , the rapist probably would not.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 10:14 AM
I agree with Beanflicker on this one, on paper, yes, everyone having a gun does look good, but it's not that simple. If someone really wanted to rape a woman a gun wouldn't stop him. I've talked to a friend of mine who was raped before and she had pepper spray in her purse, but she was so fucking scared that her body froze up and she couldn't even reach for it, what the fuck good is a gun if the attacker neutralizes the woman to the point where she can't even reach for her weapon?

So woman shouldnt have guns to protect themselves from rape because

"they will be too afraid to use it or won't bring it out in time"

Yeah I know women won't always be able to use the gun but her chances are alot better if she has one.

These "she would be scared" or "she wouldnt have time" arguments are horrible.

Noone can deny the fact that a gun gives a woman the best chance to defend herself from an attacker.

To deny her this right is just plain wrong no matter what scenarios you can dream up where the gun doesent work 100% of the time the fact of the matter is that it gives her the best chance of preventing rape.

Other methods do not have lethal stopping power. If there were other methods to protect oneself then cops wouldnt have guns.



I don't care if it is the best kind of defence, guns are illegal in most places for a reason, they're lethal. I've watched a fight where one guy pulled out a knife and stabbed the other guy then almost everyone watching the fight pulled out a knife but fortunately no one advanced on eachother and they all ran away. Imagine if those were guns and it turned into a shootout.

Stupid people who let confrontations escalate will always kill eachother. Its up to the individual to take the right actions in his life.

If shit hit the fan I sure would like to have the legal right to own a gun and use it if I am in the right.

Maybe thats not looking at the big picture but its not a nice feeling being able to carry a gun then suddenly I can't carry one anymore because people in power are looking at the big picture and could care less about me personally or me protecting myself.



Now maybe I don't understand it because I live in a safe town, but like Beanflicker said, it's a sick world, shit like this never gets avoided and will happen, but everyone having guns could be just as bad, imagine how many pointless killings would happen over heated arguments, drunk people being reckless, or misconceptions. That shit happens already with the few people who happen to have a gun.

Gun laws don't prevent drunk people from killing eachother. You can have a handgun in Canada. People who shoot other people dont worry about permits. People who get permits are not the ones who murder people.


Edit: Sorry you guys got caught in my rant, but that's just how I feel about guns, I have no problems with people having guns in their homes for their own protection. And Ninja does bring up strong arguments for being pro handguns.

If you have guns in your home than you can take them wherever you want. Laws that dont allow concealed weapons permits only hurt those that are trying to protect themselves.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 10:22 AM
this might be the only or one of the only few times that i will disagree with you. but i really dont agree. you're right about the price of guns going up and all that, but...not everyone will have guns so that's pretty irrelevant.

What do you mean not everyone will have guns? Everyone doesent have guns.

I am not saying everyone should have to have a gun I am saying that concealed weapons permits should be allowed. People who kill eachother are not the ones with permits. They are psychos who take their hunting rifles to school.



girls getting raped....i agree with the last 2 posts. pepper spray should work fine. or a taser. and if she had a gun, the gun could easily be taken away and she could be killed herself.



I already explained why pepper spray and tazers do not do what a gun does...

How about we sic Bubba on you and I give you the choice of pepper spray or a gun

mind you if the pepper spray fails your gonna have one sore ass


or if the girl had a gun, well....the rapist might have one as well, the only difference would be that she would probably be scared to use it, and he , the rapist probably would not.

women get killed anyway after they get raped alot of the time......

I would like you to talk to a friend of mine who is female and carries a small pistol and tell her this stuff. She will become angered when you tell her she can't carry a gun to protect herself from rape.

btw she was raped last year...

Atticus
04-18-2007, 10:43 AM
You're obviously very passionate about this and we'll probably never agree. I said what I feel about guns and I respect your argument as well, however, I never made any arguments saying that it will "prevent" this sort of stuff from happening, because I know it won't. And if it sounded like I was trying to bring that point across, I wasn't. But I do think that it will increase dramatically if infact a concealed weapon permit was allowed.

I probably do have a fear of guns, but I'm not someone who thinks you should walk around with a gun being afraid of the world, again, it's probably because I've lived in a safe town my entire life.

With that being said, I don't wanna push on with this debate because it could go on forever, like you and Soul Position both agreed on, there needs to be a middle ground.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 11:02 AM
You're obviously very passionate about this and we'll probably never agree. I said what I feel about guns and I respect your argument as well, however, I never made any arguments saying that it will "prevent" this sort of stuff from happening, because I know it won't. And if it sounded like I was trying to bring that point across, I wasn't. But I do think that it will increase dramatically if infact a concealed weapon permit was allowed.

I probably do have a fear of guns, but I'm not someone who thinks you should walk around with a gun being afraid of the world, again, it's probably because I've lived in a safe town my entire life.

With that being said, I don't wanna push on with this debate because it could go on forever, like you and Soul Position both agreed on, there needs to be a middle ground.

I edited my post, I didnt mean to say you were afraid of guns, whether you are or you arent its not a good way to get my point across.

People who have permits arent the ones killing eachother, you must realize this. The people who commit gun crimes are crooks, druggies and psychos not ordinary people like you and me who should have the abilty to carry guns as long as we dont have a history of mental problems or felonies.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry
The effect of various concealed carry laws are the subject of past and present research. In his book, More Guns, Less Crime, controversial pro-gun scholar John Lott's analysis of crime report data has shown some statistically significant effects of concealed carry laws. One major conclusion was that locations which enacted more permissive concealed carry laws had a decrease in violent crime,

* North Carolina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI.
* Of the 14,000 licenses issued in Oregon, only 4 individuals (0.03%) were convicted of criminal (though not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.


I think these unbiased statistics pretty much prove that concealed weapons permits are a good thing. I would stay away from self promoting sensationalists like Micheal Moore who only cares about whatever issues are currently popular.

ninjashoes
04-18-2007, 11:07 AM
I think alot of people are confused about what a concealed weapons permit means. It varies from state to state but many of them require you to take safety classes.

You can't be someone who is mentally unstable and you can't be someone who has commited violent crime. These stipulations are very important, they keep guns out of irresponsible hands for the most part and allow responsible citizens like myself and my female friend who was raped to carry a pistol as a means of self defense only.

SmokinGunz
04-18-2007, 06:28 PM
dude...you guys are crazy with this if everyone had a gun type of shit. out here in AZ, the gun laws are a fucking joke...i be seeing everyone and they momma out here with gunz...if these laws were in Chicago, there murder rate would increase drastically. the only guns i need are the ones hanging off my shoulders. RIP TO THE VICTIMS AT VIRGINIA TECH.

Elduderino
04-18-2007, 06:57 PM
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8383/11985404jj9.jpg


That said, I think i'd like to get me one of these babies. You know, for protection
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3002/fl001custom3mk.jpg